International Woman of MysteryAug 14, 2023
Michael Pryor

The English language is a wonderful thing, and we know some rules without knowing we know them.

‘Have you ever heard that patter-pitter of tiny feet? Or the dong-ding of a bell? Or hop-hip music? That’s because, when you repeat a word with a different vowel, the order is always I A O. Bish bash bosh. So politicians may flip-flop, but they can never flop-flip. It’s tit-for-tat, never tat-for-tit. This is called ablaut reduplication, and if you do things any other way, they sound very, very odd indeed.’ From ‘The Elements of Eloquence’ by Mark Forsyth.

#English #language

Aug 14, 2023 at 1:05amWeb
Show threadDrewAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor my favorite is how adjectives have a specific order they go in. Like "big red pimple", never "red big pimple".
Show threadEddeAug 14, 2023

@Drew @MichaelPryor
Googled it:
"The order of adjectives in English is determiner, quantity, opinion, size, physical quality, shape, age, color/colour, origin, material, type, and purpose." 😍

Source: https://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/order_of_adjectives.htm#:~:text=The%20order%20of%20adjectives%20in,material%2C%20type%2C%20and%20purpose.

Order of Adjectives

The order of adjectives in English is determiners, quantity, opinion, size, physical quality, shape, age, color/colour, origin, material, type, and purpose.

Show threadrainey 🌻Aug 14, 2023

@edde @Drew @MichaelPryor

Drew, I wouldn't say "never". This assumes all the adjectives are in the same valence, which is to say an A B C thing is a thing that is A, B, and C. But if one is more salient than the rest, it will be immediately before the noun. In other words, it might be a B thing that is A and C and thus an A C B thing.

Show threadAurora DittoAug 14, 2023

@edde

🤩 the emoji

Show threadHermit the FrogAug 14, 2023
@Drew @MichaelPryor and the exceptions, like the big bad wolf.
Show threadHermit the FrogAug 14, 2023
@Drew @MichaelPryor funny little duck, bad little wolf, big bad wolf.
Honestly as a non-english person it seems entirely random
Show threadekesAug 14, 2023

@Jiriki @Drew @MichaelPryor

The other way around it doesn't roll off the tongue very well.

big bad wolf follows the iao scheme instead as you can see.

Show threadHermit the FrogAug 14, 2023

@ekes @Drew @MichaelPryor
yes, and it is an exception to the other order of adjectives.

Wish I could find that screenshot, it blew my mind at the time.
How there is a subconscious order to adjectives in the English language and if you put them slightly out of order you sound like a maniac😂

And the iao order interferes with it.

Show threadMichael PryorAug 14, 2023
@Jiriki @ekes @Drew
Remember that this I A O rule is for repeating a word with a different vowel
Show threadHermit the FrogAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor @ekes @Drew oooh that is the part I was missing (from my memory) right, right. So there *is* some sort of logic to it all.
Thanks!
Show threadMichael PryorAug 14, 2023
@Jiriki @Drew 'Big bad wolf' neatly follows the I A O rule, though!
Show threadHermit the FrogAug 14, 2023

@MichaelPryor @Drew but it doesn't follow that weird other rule! Which is the one I was thinking about when commenting half asleep 😂

The extended version of the unconscious but somehow logical order of adjectives, which makes big bad wolf an outlier even though it follows the rule op pointed out.

Something something subjective, size, color, material, origin. Pretty little green cotton French handbag
(this might be wrong but I don't have the screenshot with the lengthy explanation handy).

Show threadSean MurthyAug 14, 2023
@Jiriki @Drew @MichaelPryor What's a language without exceptions. English especially.
Show threadHermit the FrogAug 14, 2023
@smurthys @Drew @MichaelPryor sometimes I think English is quite easy to learn compared to other languages and then...
*here come the exceptions, marching down a long, long lane*
Show thread🐀 ␆Aug 14, 2023
@smurthys @Jiriki @Drew @MichaelPryor Even as a native speaker, I occasionally think that English without the exceptions would be the null set.
Show threadHermit the FrogAug 14, 2023

@walshman23 @smurthys @Drew @MichaelPryor
I tried to find out what that means, null set, but am only getting pages of explanations about mathematics and my tired dutch brain is grinding to a halt.

What do you mean by that?

Show thread🐀 ␆Aug 15, 2023
@Jiriki @smurthys @Drew @MichaelPryor I meant that English has so many exceptions (and so many implicit "rules") that sometimes it seems that it is nothing but exceptions. Thus, the part that is not exceptions is nothing (aka, an empty set).
Show threadHermit the FrogAug 15, 2023
@walshman23 @smurthys @Drew @MichaelPryor right! Thanks. And yes 😂
I only learned enough English to get by through osmosis, otherwise I don't know how far I would've gotten with it..
Show threadBoris Schapira (Pro)Aug 14, 2023
@Jiriki @Drew @MichaelPryor Or we can infer from the order of adjectives in English that "bad" is not actually an opinion about the wolf, but its function in the story.
Show threadHermit the FrogAug 14, 2023
@boostmarks @Drew @MichaelPryor
Yes, agree, if I understand you correctly.
Why it is a sad little wolf, and the big bad wolf.
Show threadRiley S. FaelanAug 14, 2023

@Drew: The way I was taught the English adjective order, red big pimple is the correct order for pimples whose bigness is more constant than their redness.

@MichaelPryor

Show threadbarbedwireAug 14, 2023
@Drew @MichaelPryor yes, and ESL students have to study that order! although I usually dgaf about it when speaking 😅
Show threadJane AdamsAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor
Show threadShirley EugestAug 14, 2023
@janeadams @MichaelPryor
Oh!
Rick Rack
Show threadMullaneyAug 14, 2023

@MichaelPryor And this is why improvisors do not play: "Zop Zap Zip"

#improv

Show threadSoozcatAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor I'm in the midst of reading this book at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it. If you haven't already read the whole thing, you really should.
Show threadMichael PryorAug 14, 2023
@Soozcat It's a long time favourite. Such fun.
Show threadlukasm Aug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor breaking the rules down here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip-Slop-Slap
Slip-Slop-Slap - Wikipedia

Show threadMichael PryorAug 14, 2023
@lukasm Straylia!
Show threadS AufrechtAug 14, 2023
@[email protected] Could something like this explain why "eat your cake and have it too" evolved into the better-sounding but vapid "have your cake and eat it too"?
Show threadDorky moo girlAug 14, 2023

@MichaelPryor as a bilinugal person, coming from a language with similar roots, not all sound weird.

Pretty much, if you change the I and A around, it's fine.
But changing the I and O around always sounds weird.

But patter-pitter and tat-for-tit sound fine to me, where dong-ding and hop-hip are clearly out of place.

Show threadTheAnymouseProphetAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor
Doo-Dah seems to break the rules.
Show threadodd_meganAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor this just seems false? i have heard patter pitter and dong ding frequently. it seems far from an actual "rule"
Show threadCalumAug 16, 2023
@odd_megan @MichaelPryor Where have you heard those? I don’t think I’ve ever heard a native English speaker doing so.
Show threadodd_meganAug 16, 2023
@scottishwildcat @MichaelPryor my grandparents
Show threadRha HayeAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor “Old McDonald had a farm,
E-I-E-I-O”
but technically it is I A O
Show threadmcleod5000Aug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor Maybe another inherent rule of #language is that in phrases of two nouns with „and“ the shorter of the two will often be the first one.
Like in „bow and arrow“ in #english.
This seems to apply to other languages as well, as it would be „Pfeil und Bogen“ in #german (which lists the two subjects in reverse order).
Show threadWrathofJan 🌞🌻🌎🖖Aug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor I never realized that!
Show threadAndrocatAug 14, 2023

@MichaelPryor
Conceivably one could have dagger-digger, bogger-bagger and others like these.

If the semantics lines up with normal compound noun formation, it's going to sound just fine.

The rules for language are almost never strict, just patterns that foil the axiomatically inclined.

Show threadSam at BLAGAug 14, 2023

@MichaelPryor Nice knowledge! I'll add nick nack (or is it knick knack?), ship shape, criss cross, splish splash.

Is there an equivalent expression for when we do things like hocus pocus, higgledy piggledy, holey moley etc?

Show threadNikita LisitsaAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor Old McDonald had a farm,
I A I A O
Show threadToni WidmoAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor Possibly just a coincidence but it also has religious, gnostic and mystical significance and many occult groups chant IAO in rituals.
Show threadMike TykaAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor I love these kinds of things 💕 just like the unwritten rule of adjective ordering and other things like this: https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20160908-the-language-rules-we-know-but-dont-know-we-know
The language rules we know – but don’t know we know

Mark Forsyth tasted internet fame this week when a passage from a book he wrote went viral. He explains more language secrets that native speakers know without knowing.

BBC
Show threadkshahAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor this is a top tip I'd like to tap!
Show threadghost_shitAug 14, 2023

@MichaelPryor

In Australia in the late 80s(?), the national Cancer Council ran a series of ads to raise awareness of skin cancer, and methods of prevention. Its catchphrase was "Slip, slop, slap"*, and it was a very successful campaign - to the point where (some) people still say it now.

---

*"🎶 Slip on a shirt, slop on sunscreen, and slap on a hat🎶 "

Show threadghost_shitAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor However, "Slip, slop, slap" defies the I-A-O convention...
Show threadNidonocuAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor My favourite of the unwritten rules remains adjective order when describing something. How you can have "an old, big, red car" but never a "red, old, big car". (even just typing that as an example felt awkward)
Show threadCTAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor @negativeprimes Of course there ARE some teeny-tiny exceptions.
Show threadBenoît JonesAug 14, 2023
@cthellis @MichaelPryor @negativeprimes
If you think of it as mouth shape when you are saying the vowels, I A O (as in bish bash bosh) is moving forwards.
EE EYE OH (as in Old McDonald) also does.
Fee Fi Fee Fi Fum (Jack and the beanstalk) also.
Show threadCTAug 14, 2023
@huxley @MichaelPryor @negativeprimes Pretty interesting. I suspect any that go the other way (such as “moon man”) are driven by grammatical forcing.
Show threadBenoît JonesAug 22, 2023
@cthellis @MichaelPryor @negativeprimes
Maybe that's why 'man in the moon' is so poetic.
Show threadZerfallAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor similar to how one wouldn't say a red big truck. The order of adjectives is apparently determiner, quantity, opinion, size, physical quality, shape, age, color/colour, origin, material, type, and purpose.
Show threadRudi SeitzAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor One exception that comes to mind: "Bash Bish Falls". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bash_Bish_Falls
Bash Bish Falls - Wikipedia

Show threadCanadian CurmudgeonAug 14, 2023
@MichaelPryor I've read and greatly enjoyed his Etymologicon and Horologicon books, and look forward to reading this one.