Mastodawn

Harry Llewelyn Aug 7, 2023

This can't end well. I've already sent emails to our exec and data security departments about this.

Zoom terms of service now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

https://explore.zoom.us/en/terms/

§10.4(ii): 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights required or necessary to redistribute, publish, import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works, and process Customer Content and to perform all acts with respect to the Customer Content:(ii) for the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning, artificial intelligence, training, testing, improvement of the Services, Software, or Zoom’s other products, services, and software, or any combination thereof

#zoom #machinelearning #llm #ai

Zoom Terms of Service | Zoom

Read: Terms of Service – Zoom

Zoom

Zilla Novikov Aug 6, 2023

Your Future Ex Aug 6, 2023

@devlogic How can they use streams to train AI if it is supposedly E2EE?

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@yourfutureex @devlogic if a company controls the client app at the end points, they have access to it all, even if it is E2EE. Similarly WhatsApp.

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@yourfutureex @devlogic people using Zoom could always *stop* using it. After all, outstanding #LibreSoftware options exist, and can be self-hosted or by trusted 3rd party suppliers. Have a look at #BigBlueButton https://bigbluebutton.org & #JitsiMeet https://meet.jit.si

If you host your own (or pay someone you trust to do so), no arbitrary cut-off times. There're no per-person costs, no institutional licenses, & *no software install required*. They work with any modern browser.

Virtual Classroom Software | BigBlueButton

BigBlueButton is an open source virtual classroom software. This platform was developed for virtual learning and education. Try it today!

BigBlueButton - Open Source Web Conferencing

Nikki Reimer Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight @yourfutureex @devlogic Hard to stop using it when it’s the enterprise system at work….

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@nikkireimer what I recommend to people in your position is to *register your dissent*. Let people in a position to change the corporate policy know that you're using their chosen solution under duress. Might not change anything, but then again it might. Accepting it silently will be mistaken for approval. @yourfutureex @devlogic

Riley S. Faelan Aug 7, 2023

One context in which this might be useful would be a class action lawsuit.

Which is to say, if people do it a lot, corporate lawyers will be advising even more for lobbying against the possibility of class action lawsuits.
@nikkireimer @yourfutureex @devlogic

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@nikkireimer and, to be fair, most corporations and institutions I've had any professional interaction with are absolutely horrible at making good tech decisions and I'm often astounded that they can even function. Nearly all CIOs and CTOs I have met are entirely out of their depths and would've been replaced if their CEOs and governance boards had any tech competence (which is vanishingly rare). @yourfutureex @devlogic

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight
Can I use this to talk to my family and my professors, i.e. is there a website I can just login and it’s all ready to use already, or do I need to have a lot of technical knowledge to make it happen?

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider you can go to meet.jit.si and start a room (and just convey the room address to whoever you want to meet with). With BigBlueButton, you can use the demo, but last time I looked they'd started limiting meetings to 40 min or something like that (to manage resource requirements). Running your own isn't hard if you're relatively familiar with running a Linux server - and there're quite a few hosting companies that will spin up an instance for you for a small fee.

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight
Yeah, my question was “I want to just be able to talk to my 60 year old archaeology professors without having to convince them to learn how to do things like run a Linux server which I guarantee they do not know how to do, and also I have never done before. Is that possible?” I want to not use Zoom, but whatever it replaces with has to be as convenient as zoom or else there’s no chance.

daebb Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider @lightweight Yes, you really just have to visit https://meet.jit.si and click "Start Meeting". Don't even need an account.

Jitsi Meet

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@daebb @lightweight oh excellent, thanks

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider I'd say that the fact neither Jitsi Meet nor BBB requires installation or use of a software application makes it vastly less complicated than Zoom. My 89 yo father uses BBB without issue.

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight wait, I thought BBB required setup + installation on a clean Linux instance?

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider only if you're hosting your own, as I do. If you're using someone else's or buying a hosted service (there are many options for doing that) then it's as easy as logging into a site and starting a conversation, sending the link for the room to those with whom you want to meet. That room address is stable over time (and you can have many rooms for different contexts).

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider if you're hosting your own, you're effectively acting as your own Zoom corporation, but completely self-reliant, and without all the enshittification. Note that all the other profit-motivated corporate-run video conferencing systems are either as bad as Zoom or they will be.

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight I don't doubt it, it's just that so often the open source versions of anything are like "It's so easy to use! All you need is a full working knowledge of Linux command line, your own VPN, and a Linux machine you built yourself. Anyone can do it! Why are people using the corporate products?"

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider yes - but just be *very* mindful of the fact that proprietary software generally has 10-1000 times the investment/resource over the #LibreSoftware options... & their 'ease-o-use' isn't for your benefit, it's for *their shareholders' benefit* & your expense! "Ease of use" is only important if everyone is trained to be clueless & even self-righteously so. I see that behaviour everyday - it's the result of *loss of agency* most feel with digital technology.

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider that learnt helplessness has been actively cultivated by "big tech" because it means that 'users' will accept whatever low grade crap they're shovelled, so long as they advertise it as "user friendly". It's why I say we're in a digital Dark Age right now: https://davelane.nz/darkage

The current (digital) Dark Age

Over the past few years, it's gradually occurred to me that we're in the midst of a new Dark Age.

Dave Lane

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight for example, I think you shouldn't use Middle Ages metaphors unless you're a historian who's actually studied that time period, because you don't even realize how ridiculous your opening paragraphs sound.

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider heh heh. Fair comment. 😂 I'm riffing on the popular impression of the Middle Ages rather than aiming for strict historical accuracy. But I'd be happy to review your recommendations for making it more historically accurate.

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight Again: I don't doubt it. However, I think a lot of Libre and open source advocates really look down their noses at people who aren't coders or who don't enjoy the computer hobbyist side of things, and just want to use the Thing That Works. The idea that if you don't spend your time developing these specialized skills, it's your fault for letting your privacy get violated and your data harvested.

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight It's like saying you shouldn't drive a car unless you know how to build a combustion engine, or shouldn't use a telephone unless you laid the phone wires yourself. That's not an argument that will appeal to people whose skills are elsewhere.

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider those aren't apt analogies. A more appropriate analogy is this: your car has lights in it that warn you if it's overheating or low on oil. Many drivers are so uninformed that they choose to ignore those lights. That's the sort of lack of understanding I see every day among people whose entire livelihoods depend on digital technologies.

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight I guess in your analogy, it feels more like, "Your lights are on, and your only options are to ignore it or learn how to disassemble the car to determine what's wrong and fix it yourself, and Car People are sneering at you for not having the time or energy or desire to do that."

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider the fundamental difference is that open source/#LibreSoftware developers receive exactly $0 from any users. They literally give everyone the fruits of their labour for nuthin'. And people's first response is to slag them for not 'dumbing it down' enough...

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider you're talking about the learnt helplessness that I described earlier, that's been actively cultivated by 'big tech' firms.

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight Fair, and I wasn't trying to slag- just ask genuinely what can be used. I guess I just don't see people willfully ignoring it, is the thing. People ARE upset about digital privacy loss & corporate control! People are also upset about the amount of preservatives in processed food, so they try to cook home meals; the expensiveness of vegetables, so they try to grow their own; clothes that don't fit, so they sew their own; the corruption in politics, so they try to run for office...

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight DIY'ing everything is exhausting, and it helps to have the people who DO have the skills to say, "it isn't fair, and it shouldn't be like this, and I'm sorry" instead of "It's your own fault"

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight If I try to tell my professor "Here's a thing that's better for privacy but you need to learn a whole new skill set to do," it's going to be a non-starter. I was just asking what was available in a use case like this, and responses that boil down to "well if you want to participate in the modern world it's your responsibility to learn Linux" is just. not a helpful answer to that question, is all.

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider you're right. It isn't fair. Part of what isn't fair is that our school systems shovel big tech software down our throats, and don't teach tech *concepts*, they teach specific *products*, which creates a false sense of competence. It also creates that learnt helplessness I mentioned - it disempowers people because they can't 'tinker' with those tools - they're locked up, like the hood of a car that's welded shut.

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider you're describing why people have decided to write their own software. That's why I do.

Artemis Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight and I think that's awesome! Truly!
But I think expecting /everyone/ to write their own software is like expecting /everyone/ to sew their own clothes. Some people do. Most people don't. The fast fashion industry is awful. It should not exist the way it does. But just telling everyone that they should be sewing their own clothes doesn't answer the question of "how do I, who have never sewn before, get clothing more ethically?"

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider engineers like me have a mantra: make it as simple as possible and no simpler. We're not looking down our noses. We're frustrated by the fact that people think they should be able to wield huge power without any of the knowledge required to do it safely. The idea that the proprietary stuff most people use is 'easy to use' is a mirage. It's *too easy* to the point that people create massive vulnerabilities for themselves by *not understanding anything* they depend on.

🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@moonspider it's worth noting that there's never been a time in human history when so many people were so fully dependent on technology that only a vanishingly small % of people actually understand. That's terrifying (or it should be).

Irrelevant Redhead Aug 9, 2023

@moonspider @lightweight do you have an Apple device? FaceTime works with non-Apple systems now by sharing a link. If you use Brave Browser I think they also have a similar service to set up a simple video call

🇳🇿Aug 9, 2023

@ObsoleteGinger @moonspider video calls can trivially be made without needing to resort to any proprietary solution from a big corporate vendor... #LibreSoftware like https://meet.jit.si allows high quality video meetings with a couple clicks, at no cost on any open standards-compliant web browser (inc mobile devices). Developing dependencies on any proprietary corporate product will inevitably lead to the same tears as this recent Zoom policy change: shareholder value is the only priority.

Jitsi Meet

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge

Linux and praxis: part of the resistance 🇵🇸 ☮️Aug 8, 2023

@lightweight Jitsi fine. The problem, is that you have to persuade institutions (including Higher Education which has lost its moral compass) to jettison such. They won't. Many prefer Blackboard to Moodle. Many prefer Teams to anything else. They're stuck on Microsoft. They have safety-first IT people.

🇳🇿Aug 8, 2023

@linuxgnome they're fools (those institutions), betraying the basic purpose of the academy. And their decision makers are incompetent besides. 😉

Linux and praxis: part of the resistance 🇵🇸 ☮️Aug 8, 2023

@lightweight BTW - all the HE idiots still on Twitter and Facebook/Meta. Some even offering Amazon vouchers as student prizes.

🇳🇿Aug 8, 2023

@linuxgnome ugh. Yes. We need to work out how to apply pressure to these institutions to fundamentally change, which probably means identifying and jettisoning many of those unfit-for-purpose decision makers.

Jens 🖤Aug 7, 2023

@lightweight @yourfutureex @devlogic Zoom was never end-to-end encrypted, was it? That was just false advertising they got fined for...

(Ah, they have a "technical preview" for people with a special license.)

dibi58 Aug 7, 2023

@yourfutureex @devlogic

🤣

training it by hands on confiscated p2p e2ee devices is going to be more costly than what they hope to get out of it ...

smidbot Aug 7, 2023

@yourfutureex @devlogic zoom calls are not e2e by default. You need to set up the call to be e2e, which disables most of the zoom features other than basic video conferencing

Your Future Ex Aug 7, 2023

@smidbot @devlogic Hmmm, looks like a "throw your privacy to the bin or screw you"-like middle finger. Not exactly a client friendly offering.

IAG Aug 7, 2023

@yourfutureex @devlogic That's an easy one: It's not.

Torbjörn Björkman Aug 6, 2023

@devlogic This is all a bit too much legalese for me, so I have to ask: Is their 'Customer Content' really = user content? There's no mention of their 'End User' in connection to this and it's not clear for me from reading this what this content from me this could be.

Jo - pièce de résistance Aug 6, 2023

@devlogic
I never used it bc I feared it would be used exactly like this...and frankly I don't want my image used one day to sell fascism. You are basically handing over your moral rights over your own image and voice.

NOPE.

mr_enzzo Aug 6, 2023

@JoBlakely @devlogic they can easily generate your face/image.

They are interested in your behavior, not your look.

aces Aug 7, 2023

@mr_enzzo @JoBlakely @devlogic

Oh, they are definitely interested in your behavior. China has already rolled out a system years ago to track students eyes and expressions to determine if they're paying attention or not.

elliot 🇩🇪 🇪🇺 🇬🇧 🏳️‍🌈Aug 6, 2023

@devlogic jeez, that's disgraceful! No one should continue using it. Is this their worldwide terms of service, or just in the US? It's basically giving them permission to do absolutely anything they want with whatever you do on their service.

Gary Gregory Aug 6, 2023

@devlogic Jitsi to the rescue?

Mike Pirnat Aug 6, 2023

@devlogic @nkrishnaswami I’m sure the actual reason for this is so that they can do stuff to try to optimize quality of the audio and video streams, but it also doesn’t feel great. And also: what viable competitor won’t be doing the same thing?

Cassandrich Aug 6, 2023

@mpirnat @devlogic @nkrishnaswami "What viable competitor won’t be doing the same thing?"

Same answer as with social media and the fediverse: the one where the software and the service providers are not the same party and you're able to communicate with anyone regardless of whether you're both users of a common service provider.

This is the only answer to tech capitalism.

(Edit: well, short of revolution & guillotines. 😈)

Mike Pirnat Aug 6, 2023

@dalias @devlogic @nkrishnaswami I agree with the sentiment but it doesn't answer the question of "where do I take my business _today_?”

Cassandrich Aug 6, 2023

@mpirnat @devlogic @nkrishnaswami Signal or self hosted Jitsi? Orgs I've worked with use Signal for conference calls. We didn't use video so I'm not sure if it's available.

Mark Crocker Aug 6, 2023

@dalias @mpirnat @devlogic @nkrishnaswami yes, I have used #Signal for video conferencing. However, video group calls are limited to 40 users https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360052977792-Group-Calling-Voice-or-Video .

It also requires a phone with the client installed before the desktop version can be used, so all the participants have to either have a corporate phone or be comfortable with their personal number being available to everybody in the meeting.

Group Calling - Voice or Video

Like all Signal messages, group voice and group video calls are private too. You will be prompted to grant the Camera and Microphone permissions the first time you make or receive a Signal call. ...

Signal Support

Yoann Pageaud 🧬Aug 7, 2023

@mpirnat 2 options I use and used: Jitsi and BigBlueButton.
And it has to be self-hosted of course! So that you can keep track of what data (if any) is collected on users.

Good luck!

Smythe Aug 7, 2023

@dalias @mpirnat @devlogic @nkrishnaswami Let’s discuss this option you’ve brought up…