devlogicAug 6, 2023

This can't end well. I've already sent emails to our exec and data security departments about this.

Zoom terms of service now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

https://explore.zoom.us/en/terms/

§10.4(ii): 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights required or necessary to redistribute, publish, import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works, and process Customer Content and to perform all acts with respect to the Customer Content:(ii) for the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning, artificial intelligence, training, testing, improvement of the Services, Software, or Zoom’s other products, services, and software, or any combination thereof

#zoom #machinelearning #llm #ai

Zoom Terms of Service | Zoom

Read: Terms of Service – Zoom

Zoom
Show threadYour Future ExAug 6, 2023
@devlogic How can they use streams to train AI if it is supposedly E2EE?
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@yourfutureex @devlogic if a company controls the client app at the end points, they have access to it all, even if it is E2EE. Similarly WhatsApp.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023

@yourfutureex @devlogic people using Zoom could always *stop* using it. After all, outstanding #LibreSoftware options exist, and can be self-hosted or by trusted 3rd party suppliers. Have a look at #BigBlueButton https://bigbluebutton.org & #JitsiMeet https://meet.jit.si

If you host your own (or pay someone you trust to do so), no arbitrary cut-off times. There're no per-person costs, no institutional licenses, & *no software install required*. They work with any modern browser.

Virtual Classroom Software | BigBlueButton

BigBlueButton is an open source virtual classroom software. This platform was developed for virtual learning and education. Try it today!

BigBlueButton - Open Source Web Conferencing
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight
Can I use this to talk to my family and my professors, i.e. is there a website I can just login and it’s all ready to use already, or do I need to have a lot of technical knowledge to make it happen?
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider you can go to meet.jit.si and start a room (and just convey the room address to whoever you want to meet with). With BigBlueButton, you can use the demo, but last time I looked they'd started limiting meetings to 40 min or something like that (to manage resource requirements). Running your own isn't hard if you're relatively familiar with running a Linux server - and there're quite a few hosting companies that will spin up an instance for you for a small fee.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight
Yeah, my question was “I want to just be able to talk to my 60 year old archaeology professors without having to convince them to learn how to do things like run a Linux server which I guarantee they do not know how to do, and also I have never done before. Is that possible?” I want to not use Zoom, but whatever it replaces with has to be as convenient as zoom or else there’s no chance.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider I'd say that the fact neither Jitsi Meet nor BBB requires installation or use of a software application makes it vastly less complicated than Zoom. My 89 yo father uses BBB without issue.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight wait, I thought BBB required setup + installation on a clean Linux instance?
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider only if you're hosting your own, as I do. If you're using someone else's or buying a hosted service (there are many options for doing that) then it's as easy as logging into a site and starting a conversation, sending the link for the room to those with whom you want to meet. That room address is stable over time (and you can have many rooms for different contexts).
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider if you're hosting your own, you're effectively acting as your own Zoom corporation, but completely self-reliant, and without all the enshittification. Note that all the other profit-motivated corporate-run video conferencing systems are either as bad as Zoom or they will be.
Show threadArtemis
@lightweight I don't doubt it, it's just that so often the open source versions of anything are like "It's so easy to use! All you need is a full working knowledge of Linux command line, your own VPN, and a Linux machine you built yourself. Anyone can do it! Why are people using the corporate products?"
Aug 7, 2023 at 8:33pmWeb
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider yes - but just be *very* mindful of the fact that proprietary software generally has 10-1000 times the investment/resource over the #LibreSoftware options... & their 'ease-o-use' isn't for your benefit, it's for *their shareholders' benefit* & your expense! "Ease of use" is only important if everyone is trained to be clueless & even self-righteously so. I see that behaviour everyday - it's the result of *loss of agency* most feel with digital technology.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider that learnt helplessness has been actively cultivated by "big tech" because it means that 'users' will accept whatever low grade crap they're shovelled, so long as they advertise it as "user friendly". It's why I say we're in a digital Dark Age right now: https://davelane.nz/darkage
The current (digital) Dark Age

Over the past few years, it's gradually occurred to me that we're in the midst of a new Dark Age.

Dave Lane
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight for example, I think you shouldn't use Middle Ages metaphors unless you're a historian who's actually studied that time period, because you don't even realize how ridiculous your opening paragraphs sound.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider heh heh. Fair comment. 😂 I'm riffing on the popular impression of the Middle Ages rather than aiming for strict historical accuracy. But I'd be happy to review your recommendations for making it more historically accurate.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight Again: I don't doubt it. However, I think a lot of Libre and open source advocates really look down their noses at people who aren't coders or who don't enjoy the computer hobbyist side of things, and just want to use the Thing That Works. The idea that if you don't spend your time developing these specialized skills, it's your fault for letting your privacy get violated and your data harvested.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight It's like saying you shouldn't drive a car unless you know how to build a combustion engine, or shouldn't use a telephone unless you laid the phone wires yourself. That's not an argument that will appeal to people whose skills are elsewhere.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider those aren't apt analogies. A more appropriate analogy is this: your car has lights in it that warn you if it's overheating or low on oil. Many drivers are so uninformed that they choose to ignore those lights. That's the sort of lack of understanding I see every day among people whose entire livelihoods depend on digital technologies.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight I guess in your analogy, it feels more like, "Your lights are on, and your only options are to ignore it or learn how to disassemble the car to determine what's wrong and fix it yourself, and Car People are sneering at you for not having the time or energy or desire to do that."
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider the fundamental difference is that open source/#LibreSoftware developers receive exactly $0 from any users. They literally give everyone the fruits of their labour for nuthin'. And people's first response is to slag them for not 'dumbing it down' enough...
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider you're talking about the learnt helplessness that I described earlier, that's been actively cultivated by 'big tech' firms.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight Fair, and I wasn't trying to slag- just ask genuinely what can be used. I guess I just don't see people willfully ignoring it, is the thing. People ARE upset about digital privacy loss & corporate control! People are also upset about the amount of preservatives in processed food, so they try to cook home meals; the expensiveness of vegetables, so they try to grow their own; clothes that don't fit, so they sew their own; the corruption in politics, so they try to run for office...
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight DIY'ing everything is exhausting, and it helps to have the people who DO have the skills to say, "it isn't fair, and it shouldn't be like this, and I'm sorry" instead of "It's your own fault"
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight If I try to tell my professor "Here's a thing that's better for privacy but you need to learn a whole new skill set to do," it's going to be a non-starter. I was just asking what was available in a use case like this, and responses that boil down to "well if you want to participate in the modern world it's your responsibility to learn Linux" is just. not a helpful answer to that question, is all.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight Even if the answer is "all of these require learning Linux, sorry, what you want doesn't exist," that's a valid answer, but it's the whole, "You don't deserve to use computers unless you have the same skills I do" isn't helpful.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider as I've tried to explain, the open source options are as easy to *use* as Zoom. But, if you see value in doing so, you have full agency to pay someone you trust to host them for you, or *even do it yourself*. Trust me, it's not as hard as you're imagining. The point is that those latter options *aren't available at all* with proprietary 'big tech' digital tools.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight yeah, and that clarification really helped! Because poking around the website I was not clear on that at all, if that was a self-hosting option or a requirement.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider the key realisation is that software isn't easy unless you're willing to waive all control & hand it to a 3rd party. In the case of 'big tech', I'm reminded of that cartoon where the two pigs are standing in farm paddock musing over how well the farmer feeds and grateful about how well they're looked after... their goal is to help users develop a complete dependence on their services. They invest $billions in that, rather than in securing their software. They polish turds.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider you're right. It isn't fair. Part of what isn't fair is that our school systems shovel big tech software down our throats, and don't teach tech *concepts*, they teach specific *products*, which creates a false sense of competence. It also creates that learnt helplessness I mentioned - it disempowers people because they can't 'tinker' with those tools - they're locked up, like the hood of a car that's welded shut.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight we can definitely agree there for sure.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider you're describing why people have decided to write their own software. That's why I do.
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight and I think that's awesome! Truly!
But I think expecting /everyone/ to write their own software is like expecting /everyone/ to sew their own clothes. Some people do. Most people don't. The fast fashion industry is awful. It should not exist the way it does. But just telling everyone that they should be sewing their own clothes doesn't answer the question of "how do I, who have never sewn before, get clothing more ethically?"
Show threadArtemisAug 7, 2023
@lightweight and I do think there should be a pivot to more people learning sewing skills, and basic mending At Least being part of everyone's toolkit - and I think you're right that we need to teach tech concepts and tech literacy better.
But that's a different prong of offense than "if you need a suit next week, better learn to sew, because all commercially provided clothing sucks"
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider I think you're misinterpreting my message. I'm not saying that everyone needs to know how to write software. But everyone should know how to assemble a computer from components (my 11yo son just built his own PC). Or host a software package on a server. It's the sort of thing that every school should teach, because it's empowering! Your analogy: not everyone needs to make their own cloths, but it sure would be good for the world if everyone could mend a sock or hem their trousers.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider engineers like me have a mantra: make it as simple as possible and no simpler. We're not looking down our noses. We're frustrated by the fact that people think they should be able to wield huge power without any of the knowledge required to do it safely. The idea that the proprietary stuff most people use is 'easy to use' is a mirage. It's *too easy* to the point that people create massive vulnerabilities for themselves by *not understanding anything* they depend on.
Show threadDave Lane  🇳🇿Aug 7, 2023
@moonspider it's worth noting that there's never been a time in human history when so many people were so fully dependent on technology that only a vanishingly small % of people actually understand. That's terrifying (or it should be).