Mastodawn

This long-term structural issue is prob most important: https://progressives.social/@chargrille/110647446788441301

Jack's "solution" to Nazis using SM to do mob violence against their targets is "algorithm choice" which is intentionally anti-social & favors proliferation & stochastic terrorism.

Mastodon's model "shifts moderation to the source, rather than the destination" creating accountability. See https://escapingtech.com/tech/opinions/i-was-wrong-about-mastodon-moderation.html

Jack re-invented a federating protocol to avoid ActivityPub. So #Bluesky could make a walled garden.

Erin Conroy (@[email protected])

Attached: 2 images @[email protected] @[email protected] The other thing I've been trying to focus attention on, is that Jack's "solution" to abusers in social media - "algorithmic choice" - is intentionally anti-social & inherently biased towards increasing hate speech &stochastic terrorism. Mastodon's model "shifts moderation to the source, rather than the destination" creating accountability. See https://escapingtech.com/tech/opinions/i-was-wrong-about-mastodon-moderation.html And the reason Jack re-wrote an analog for ActivityPub protocol was so he could capture the audience.

Mastodon progressives

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/18/opinion/trump-elon-musk-twitter.html?unlocked_article_code=zlR7ggf54bEXHdoO1DGzI8KevoOo2rPOhsVKu3tjA10sn-dFdmoH9bE1wgh_tGblKiZ2nWXboIGYQbJNykEkZilEGiY56LgpmQikuYXBDdlVkYGsT9vMXim6zM-F8J9Uoj9Nu6rM0xKK6NSPScFsqtfuYOEA0y5GeiWUFOUpe-4t4d1I16IsVjQXD9FqGk2zepHqs_wMmzhXTma4TNJWb39D0_-pnUrV_FA1tUtJFXvbJ6PDctR17vg4tVxiTaNQlIEC9BYgqMqXye0gr0c3z4WJkM2qF3C_PovhMf9yaadOzL337mgietDK17ebFO97NwxWzHcnTFULMxLYLUrkgZ4

Erin Conroy Sep 24, 2023

"As violence unfolded at the Capitol on Jan. 6, Jack Dorsey, who was then the chief executive of Twitter, overruled Trust and Safety’s recommendation that Mr. Trump’s account should be banned because of several tweets, including one that attacked Vice President Mike Pence. He was given a 12-hour timeout instead"

-Yoel Roth, former head of Trust & Safety at Twitter (including during the Jan 6 Republican coup)

#BlueSky is a Dorsey project & he owns (controlling?) shares

Opinion | I Was Attacked by Donald Trump and Elon Musk. I Believe It Was a Strategy To Change What You See Online.

Yoel Roth argues that his experiences being attacked by Trump and Musk were part of a greater strategy — one that is changing what all of us see online.

The New York Times

Karoli

Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille flagging this for @shoq. Pretty sure there is hope for harmonious federation.

@Karoli Thanks, I don't know shoq. Have they been covering Bluesky?

Karoli

Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille he has been. And has been developing for the fediverse.

@Karoli Great, I will check him out.

I don't think that 3rd party bridging between ActivityPub protocol & Jack's AT Protocol will solve for the problem of Jack using Bluesky to amass users & give platforms like Gab & Parler & Twitter access to those users for radicalization by fascists. The "algorithm choice" model is structured to allow this, in my opinion.

@Karoli

Also, see image from Micah Lee's (unsatisfying, to me) recent piece on Bluesky. Users are still in a walled garden created by Dorsey reinventing the wheel with AT Protocol. The one touted BS benefit - portability - lost if you wanted to leave Bluesky's protocol universe. You can't go to the fediverse, only some future server that uses Bluesky's ATP. Journalists & others who rely on Bluesky ATP for their account, can't leave it for the nonprofit fediverse, without giving up their acct.

@Karoli I'm not sure whether bridging will solve this problem. Whom should I follow on current bridging efforts?

@chargrille What exactly is "algorithm choice"?

@toxtethogrady Designing a personal algorithm so you don't see stuff you don't like.

Obviously that does nothing to stop the proliferation of Nazi rhetoric that stigmatizes & drives hatred against women, POC, LGBTQ people, Jewish people, etc. and online radicalization campaigns & threats to other users. In fact, it will allow them to recruit more efficiently, with less pushback.

I think it's tailor-made to increase Nazi reach.

@chargrille We all kind of do that anyway by using "block" lists and "mute" buttons. I remember running into adversaries on Twitter who proudly announced to me and their compatriots that they were blocking me. Once they did that they ceased to exist, and I could taunt them behind their back (and their friends who hadn't blocked me could see that). I always referred to them as having run off screaming into the night because they couldn't handle the truth...

But I digress. I come from the old MSNBC boards, where there were no rules in that knife fight and there were no moderators, so any old extreme posting was okey-dokey. Eventually, MSNBC got rid of those old message boards, and you can probably understand why - it all got out of control...

@toxtethogrady

Jack's approach is a much more extreme version than individual use of mute & block, because it makes types of content invisible [like "hate speech"] rather than making ALL the user's speech invisible. So individual users lose the incentive not to engage in hate speech. AND it allows users who are open to not blocking hate speech to be invisibly radicalized.

The Fediverse method of dealing with it is much better (see Escaping Tech piece) because it's community based.

The thing that makes me sooooooooooo depressed is that I strongly suspect that none of these facts/considerations are likely to change the mind of a single person who's on Bluesky or thinking about joining it.

I'm at a loss to know what matters to people outside of user experience that would possibly lead them to take a longer term outlook.

If you've insights, they are officially solicited.

CarlG Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." -Albert Einstein.

How can anyone fed up with #twitter join #bluesky without stopping to ask how submitting to the control of one deranged oligarch over another is an improvement.

@CarlG314 Especially since it's the SAME oligarch who created Twitter, moved heaven & earth to make sure his buddy oligarch took it over, & still has a $1 billion stake in Twitter.

If Bluesky takes off, I'm sure they'll follow the original plan & transition Twitter to Jack's AT Protocol that Bluesky will run.

Samir Al-Battran Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille
The average user doesn't care, they want a reliable service with good content

@samir OK so one vote for "no one cares", but what do you think they mean by "good content"?

Samir Al-Battran Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille
Not a vote, that's just the reality honestly.
As for good content, I mean people seeing people seeing content you care about. The content I see here is interesting to me (technology), but not much else outside of that
There was a local election for example last week, nothing on that, there is chaos in the middle east, nothing of that.
So tech is interesting to me, but not to most people. Also hardly any of my friends are here 🤷

Dr Samuel Douglas Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille I think part of it, for people who actually think beyond user experience and network effects, is lack of belief in a good alternative. All social media that functions as frictionlessly as people want it to is deeply (and probably inherently) tainted by the worst tendencies of capitalism.

Karoli

Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille my understanding is that Dorsey seeded it and stepped back.

@Karoli I've seen that asserted here and there, but it's not sourced. And Graber actually gave exactly the opposite answer to the press:

Q: "Dorsey is on your board & helped dream this all up...has there been a change with his involvement in Bluesky? Graber: Nope."

But, the real issue is that Dorsey owns it (prob at least 1/3 share, maybe more) & will get control & profits. Press has not answered any of this or given Bluesky real critical scrutiny.

William Pietri Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille
If it's any help, I think there will never be another Twitter. A global groupchat worked because of the novelty and the lack of alternatives. But I think now we'll just end up with fragmentation.

Personally, I think of this in terms of populations. To use food as an analogy, most people don't pick their diet for rational reasons. Occasionally, somebody is ready to change and will then listen to facts. So I try to keep my hopes at that level. I'll explain why they should change their habits, why it is good for them and everybody else. I'm not going to expect more than a modest percentage to do the right but unsatisfying thing. And I'll try to celebrate the progress, with only modest despair at the gap between the current step forward and how far I think we still have to go.

@williampietri I think I have a lot more personal growth on acceptance to go before I can be at your point but I see why it is good for mental health.

I guess these Bluesky threads are my version of saying

"I thought we all realized that partially hydrogenated oils damage our health. Why is everyone trying to get their friends to eat the newest version of partially hydrogenated oils, made by the exact same company that sold them to us the first time?"

Pass the Dutchie Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille i think some twitter accounts need the antagonist. They are skilled at persuasion. Mastodon is preaching to the choir.

@kcanales02 I like persuasion, but I prefer to deal with people who are capable of rational conversation & exchanges where both parties care whether they're misrepresenting the facts - & there's been very little of that on Twitter for years. Mostly it's just dunking back & forth since 2020, even among other Democrats. I used it to gather information & share actions with other people and Mastodon is great for both of those things - even better the more people join!

https://mastodon.social/users/kcanales02/statuses/110648306620664147

@kcanales02 I suspect that people are pretty deluded about how much persuasion actually happens between Republicans and Democrats.

Virginicus Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille The Romans who enjoyed chariot races and gladiators didn’t care that the games were paid for by a loathsome emperor.

blake shaw 🇵🇸Jul 4, 2023

@chargrille i know from friends who have tried coming here during this migration cycles that they arrive to see posts from people explaining "what not to bring with you from twitter" and various ground rules that long time Mastodon users champion, and they see the warnings posted about various servers people should defederate, and that makes them feel like this won't be a place where their weird, defamiliarizing, negative posts will be allowed to flourish, and so stop trying after a few days.

blake shaw 🇵🇸Jul 4, 2023

@chargrille also like, most people I talk to say they want quote retweets but its not happening because one of the maintainers got dunked on badly on Twitter back when (apparently), and that kind of stuff adds up to a not very inviting place, a sort of country club vibe, where they club's members are sure that their way is the correct way and if you don't like it you can join a server that is unanimously blocked.

@rml

I also would like QTs and searchability, though I also get the reasons they were consciously omitted and I think it's respectful practice to get to know the place you move to before you leap in to change it around. There are workarounds. Have you tried elk.fedified? The QT feature is thoughtfully designed & does an automatic screenshot with alt text, which is awesome.

@rml Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response, I appreciate it.

blake shaw 🇵🇸Jul 4, 2023

@chargrille ill check out elk! Thanks

@rml It's a fork of elk that @DataDrivenMD developed. It's just elk.fedified, not all of elk. FYI.

@rml

Yes, I experienced that unwelcome feeling too. I took a break and came back. I've done that many times because I think speaking the truth is important. I think that as more people have joined, the policing has subsided. As someone used to being constantly attacked on Twitter from all sides, I'm a little confused why it's troublesome to people who've been on Twitter for any amount of time, though. Twitter is far more hostile. But I know the fediverse phenomenon you are talking about.

Ricardo Harvin Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille Bluesky is Dorsey is Twitter is Musk is a fascist platform.

I hope people learn this and stop supporting it.

@ricardoharvin

100%. It's a self-defeating move if you want American democracy to survive. It's a serious mistake and it seems like people are engaging there out of very short term motivations.

@davetroy on here had a good piece some time ago on this subject. https://davetroy.medium.com/no-elon-and-jack-are-not-competitors-theyre-collaborating-3e88cde5267d

No, Elon and Jack are not “competitors.” They’re collaborating.

Wherein I attempt to clarify a number of ridiculous and false narratives currently taking hold about Musk and Dorsey’s “rivalry.”

Medium

@ricardoharvin @davetroy

The other thing I've been trying to focus attention on, is that Jack's "solution" to abusers in social media - "algorithmic choice" - is intentionally anti-social & inherently biased towards increasing hate speech &stochastic terrorism.

Mastodon's model "shifts moderation to the source, rather than the destination" creating accountability. See https://escapingtech.com/tech/opinions/i-was-wrong-about-mastodon-moderation.html

And the reason Jack re-wrote an analog for ActivityPub protocol was so he could capture the audience.

I Was Wrong About Mastodon – EscapingTech

I said that Mastodon moderation wouldn't scale, it does. The cultural differences will likely continue to maintain a friendlier atmosphere regardless of size.

@sp Dorsey is not Bluesky. He is a major investor and on the board, but the team including the female CEO, have a lot of independence from him. One should be wary, but for different reasons. See my post: https://keywords.oxus.net/archives/2023/05/13/on-beyond-twitter

On Beyond Twitter - Keywords

[Skip ahead to Part Two if you just want to read about Bluesky.] Since Elon Musk purchased Twitter, the platform has experienced rapid decline. Musk

@sp and see this: https://theintercept.com/2023/06/01/bluesky-owner-twitter-elon-musk/

Is Bluesky Billionaire-Proof?

Questions and answers about the new social media network Bluesky that you don’t need an invite to see. First, Jack Dorsey is not an owner.

The Intercept

@kerim @sp How much of Bluesky does Dorsey own, exactly? Is it a majority share, for example?

If you have a real answer, please share its source.

Also, it seems like you are not aware that Dorsey hand-picked Graber to be CEO.

@ricardoharvin adding you back in as well

@chargrille @sp @ricardoharvin did you read the intercept article I shared? It says the answer is zero percent. It is wholly owned by the team.

Ricardo Harvin Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille @kerim @sp Bluesky is Dorsey's brainchild and he's clearly stated his vision and technical goals, which the platform is pursuing.

Regardless of technicalities, Bluesky would not be funded if not for Dorsey's participation in first, promoting the idea, and now actively promoting the platform and his plans for it to integrate seamlessly with Twitter (and yes, other platforms, theoretically).

I can't take anyone seriously who isn't highly critical of Jack, who wanted Musk for Twitter.

@ricardoharvin @chargrille @sp you can be highly critical of Jack, and also at the same time think that technicalities actually matter.

Ricardo Harvin Jul 3, 2023

@kerim @chargrille @sp The fundamental point is many of do not trust Bluesky precisely because of Jack's still ongoing involvement and stated goals for the platform, which are proceeding as he's described.

His financial stake is irrelevant to this specific point and conversation.

@kerim

Please do share the technicalities, which matter to me. To start, what exact portion of Bluesky LLP does Jack own?

What other related legal entities exist? Who exactly owns the IP? Bluesky's AT Protocol's ownership can be different from the code for Bluesky the platform & service can be separate from that.

@sp

@kerim So, instead of answering or even discussing any of this, you have blocked me. OK.

@sp

Spicewalla Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille

That's the way it goes with 95% of those types. They demand a standard of evidence from you that they are unwilling to meet themselves.

@kerim @sp

toolbear#🪧Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille
And dorsey goes to bat for actual nazis:
https://circumstances.run/@davidgerard/110601753477038237

EDIT: Which you knew already ofc :) https://progressives.social/@chargrille/110286183274328191

David Gerard (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] it is important to remember that (a) jack wants to make it impossible to ban people, specifically Trump and (b) jack personally intervened to keep neo-Nazi Richard Spencer on Twitter. the design of bluesky is to keep nazis from being banned.

GSV Sleeper Service

@toolbear @chargrille If Dorsey were intellectually honest about not restricting anyone, including Richard Spencer, from using his platform, then he would also make it impossible for Spencer to mute his critics. This played to my great advantage against all manner of Trumpsters on Twitter, until Elon Musk started banning their critics. That proved that Musk is intellectually dishonest...

toolbear#🪧Jul 3, 2023

@toxtethogrady
I think I get what you're saying. I reject free speech absolutism. I agree that they're hypocrites. I don't think criticizing Dorsey (and Musk) for not *actually* being free speech absolutists is an effective way to work against them.

@toolbear Being here is the most effective way to work against them. They can't be regulated out of existence...

Dr Samuel Douglas Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille This might explain Bluesky restricting people from joining up during twitter’s latest borkfest.

Corrado Jul 4, 2023

@DrSamD @chargrille nah, this is just because it’s in beta and they use invite-only system for now. Bluesky (when fully built) will probably be one of the biggest threat to Twitter. I can’t see Jack helping Twitter here…

Barry Schwartz 🫖Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille I think the main problem with getting involved in a Dorsey venture is he is a lunatic liable to screw it up hugely just as he screwed up Twitter hugely.

@chemoelectric

Yes, I agree. At base my position isn't any more complicated than that. Except I would add that his ideological priors mean that what we might call a "screwup" (enabling authoritarians & fascists), he would see as a goal.

Barry Schwartz 🫖Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille In the sense he envisions the future of a hard science fiction novel, yes.

Smitty187 Jul 3, 2023

@chargrille Eff that chud. Thanks for spreading the facts

Arindam Basu Jul 3, 2023

He is also behind Nostr. Shall we also stay away from Nostr?

@arinbasu1

I certainly think so. Based on his support for fascists during the Trump Administration & last few years, I wouldn't help any venture by Jack Dorsey at all.