Bob JonesJun 15, 2023
unlimitedbacon โ™พ๏ธ๐Ÿฅ“

A modern 3D printer being controlled by an ancient KayPro II. It's printing a G-Code file saved on the floppy disk!

@SamTornado and I did an incredible amount of work to get this going. It's connected to the printer via the serial. We also had to figure out how to connect the KayPro to a PC to copy the G-Code over.

Also wrote a custom program in Z80 assembly to stream the file to the printer.

All this to prove that we could have had home 3D printers in the 80s!

#3dprinting #retrocomputing

Jun 15, 2023 at 1:16amWeb
Show threadKevin Karhan Jun 15, 2023

@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado yes, because any FDM-based 3D printer is essentially just a hot glue gun with a precise & motorized control.

No, because it would've been frightingly expensive and unaffordable given the fact that microcontroller the printer has is millions of times faster than the KayPro.

Maybe, because CNC routers and milling machines even existed that were controlled by VIC-20's.

Show threadCassandrichJun 15, 2023
@kkarhan @unlimitedbacon @SamTornado At low speeds you don't really need a fast uC. It'd be fun to do some rough estimates of what kind of computing power you would need. Lacking modern stepper drivers too you'd either need to implement your own in discrete components or do a naive full step one with reduction gearing or something.
Show threadKevin Karhan Jun 15, 2023

@dalias @unlimitedbacon @SamTornado I'm shure a crude #3Dprinter would've been possible using #COTS parts like a stepper motor from a #Floppy drive...

It would certainly result in far more "coarse" builds that are less precise and intricate.

Basically a computer-controlled hot glue gun...

Show threadCassandrichJun 15, 2023
@kkarhan @unlimitedbacon @SamTornado Pretty sure a 6502 or Z80 could do motion planning only a few times slower than the AVRs that were standard til a couple years ago. That should suffice for modern precision up to 30 mm/s or so.
Show threadKevin Karhan Jun 15, 2023

@dalias @unlimitedbacon @SamTornado depends...

#Z80 or even #i8080 were back then quite pricy, so I'd assume those 3D printers - had they existed back then - to still cost as much as a decent car...

Show threadCassandrichJun 15, 2023
@kkarhan @unlimitedbacon @SamTornado I guess I'm thinking late 80s not early. Run the motion control on a NES or something. ๐Ÿ˜
Show threadSimon FrankauJun 15, 2023
@kkarhan @dalias @unlimitedbacon @SamTornado I think a useful data point is the C64 disk drive had its own 6502. Reasonable precedent for second processor used for fairly intensive time sensitive stuff on a home computer. But yeah, not cheap. By the time the Sega Genesis had a Z80 sound processor (and Master System emulator) in '88, it was much less noteable, though.
Show threadKevin Karhan Jun 15, 2023

@sgf @dalias @unlimitedbacon @SamTornado

EXACTLY THAT!

Show threadAndrewJun 15, 2023
@dalias @kkarhan @unlimitedbacon @[email protected] I think I would posit that a 3D printer needs equal or less processing power to a graphical paper printer, so thereโ€™s your high water mark
Show threadAndrewJun 15, 2023
@dalias @kkarhan @unlimitedbacon actually probably better to compare with a different peripheral that was all over the place in the 80โ€™s: the plotter
Show threadKevin Karhan Jun 15, 2023

@cinebox @dalias @unlimitedbacon yeah ,that should be somewhat like that since we swap "color" for height as 3rd info besides 2D coordinates for a monochrome printer...

Which is why all modern print systems that do more than one colour internally act as multiple single-colour print systems staggered after one another...

From Inkjet to Laser/LED to huge Offset printing machines...

Show threadAndrewJun 15, 2023
@kkarhan @dalias @unlimitedbacon well the big difference is that a 3D printer is just fed Gcode, not a model. Graphical printers ingest postscript which is infinitely more complex
Show threadKevin Karhan Jun 15, 2023
@cinebox @dalias @unlimitedbacon point taken...
Show threadCassandrichJun 15, 2023
@cinebox @kkarhan @unlimitedbacon This is true, but even gcode is a lot higher level than a raster 2D print format like consumer printers used before having the processing power to do PS. This is because you have dynamic motion that's respecting acceleration constraints, not a fixed motion path with modulation of ink/whatever.
Show threadAndrewJun 15, 2023

@dalias @kkarhan @unlimitedbacon yeah I guess I had my mind dead set thinking about the LaserWriter for โ€œ80s graphical printerโ€

(Lmao ios autocorrect insists on capitalizing that)

Show threadThe DoctorJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @[email protected] That is awesome! That could be a talk at HOPE or Defcon.
Show threadMack ReedJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado I wrote unsold magazine articles and bad screenplays in my 20s on my Kaypro 2. If only I had known, it *is* capable of greatness!
Show threadrequiem ๐ŸฆซJun 15, 2023

@unlimitedbacon makes perfect sense to me. The first CNC machines I programmed in high school were run the same way off 8-bit micros.

@[email protected]

Show threadClarissa C. S. RyanJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado omg! (First computer I ever used/my family ever owned.)
Show threadOrcJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado Now do it with a pdp-8 :-)
Show threadhaitchfiveJun 15, 2023

@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado

This looks amazing, congrats!

It does prove that, had precision components had been available in the 1980s, you could have communicated the Kaypro with 21st century technology, had 21st century technology been available in the 1980s.

Alternatively, using extremely costly 1980s prototyping technology, that did actually exist, and car makers did actually have back then.

Definitely not at home, and definitely not cheap in the 1980s.

Show threadScenarioJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado @GhostOnTheHalfShell Way impressed. ๐Ÿ˜Ž
Show threadJiล™รญ Fiala Total LandscapingJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado that's insane, can you put it in github or something?
Show threadunlimitedbacon โ™พ๏ธ๐Ÿฅ“Jun 15, 2023

@stooovie @SamTornado
Here's the code on GitHub!

https://github.com/unlimitedbacon/kayprint

GitHub - unlimitedbacon/kayprint: Running a 3D printer with an 80s retro computer

Running a 3D printer with an 80s retro computer. Contribute to unlimitedbacon/kayprint development by creating an account on GitHub.

GitHub
Show threadJiล™รญ Fiala Total LandscapingJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado fantastic!
Show threadLuรญs SilvaJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado Of course we could have 3D printing in the 80s. Come on, just say that you did it for fun, having fun is good ๐Ÿ˜Š
Show threadunlimitedbacon โ™พ๏ธ๐Ÿฅ“Jun 15, 2023
@lmss @SamTornado I mean... you're not wrong.
Show threadAxel HartmannJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado - doesn't the 3D printer's microcontroller (Arduino based?) outperform the Z80?!?
Show threadunlimitedbacon โ™พ๏ธ๐Ÿฅ“Jun 15, 2023

@axel_hartmann @SamTornado Yah. They're both 8 bit CPUs, but iirc the Arduino is clocked higher.

Also there's a huge performance difference between reading/writing to floppy disks and flash memory.

Show threadWorkshopshedJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado nicely done. I can well believe it would have been possible. In the 1980s, I made a flatbed X-Y plotter that connected to my ZxSpectrum and a few years later was programming industrial CNC machines in GCode.
Show threadintuitivJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon Designing and slicing a model with a 8Bit CPU would be no fun. I remeber my first Mandelbrot fractal program on a Z80, 1MHz, CP/M with MBasic. It took over 16 hours...
Show threadrecursive ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€๐ŸŒˆJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado That sounds a bit akin to the reasoning that Ben Franklin could have built a nitrogen laser ๐Ÿ˜„
Show threadunlimitedbacon โ™พ๏ธ๐Ÿฅ“Jun 17, 2023
@recursive @SamTornado Ok. I really want to hear how Ben Franklin could build a laser now.
Show threadrecursive ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€๐ŸŒˆJun 17, 2023

@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado I was mostly making a wisecrack, it's not exactly analogous, since in this case it's more the development of scientific knowledge than engineering practice, but basically like this:

- build an inefficient nitrogen laser using plain air as the lasing medium, e.g. https://physicsopenlab.org/2020/07/16/diy-nitrogen-tea-laser/ and you could basically do it with materials of the time (glass, metal foil, wire)
- power it with electrostatic generators of the time, including https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin%27s_electrostatic_machine

But: [1/2]

DIY Nitrogen TEA Laser - PhysicsOpenLab

Abstract : in the cover image the homebuilt TEA nitrogen laser in use at PhyscsOpenLab. The entire l

PhysicsOpenLab
Show threadrecursive ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€๐ŸŒˆJun 17, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado
- If it works, would anyone have a useful explanation for why it's an interesting creation (it's not obviously interesting, it just makes this faint beam which causes some things to fluoresce, the short duration wouldn't be measurable with the technology of the time)?
- If it doesn't work, would anyone have the ability to explain why, e.g.: too much inductance between the capacitor and the spark gap resulting in an insufficiently fast discharge, etc.
[2/2]
Show threadSam TornadoJun 17, 2023
@recursive
Oh! Very cool, Thanks!
We figured it was a "wisecrack" ๐Ÿ˜‰.
But than @unlimitedbacon and I got to talk about, "how would Ben Franklin Build a laser"๐Ÿค” ๐Ÿ˜‚
Show threadDan HallockJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado
Iโ€™ve always thought 3D printers are very reminiscent of pen plotters from the 80s.
Show threadmpearsonJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado awesome! Question is of course, how long would this machine have taken to slice the STL?
Show threadKryostarJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado This is really cool. Love the aesthetics as well.
Show threadHarri GranholmJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon this makes me happy
Show threadSSFC KDT (MOVED)Jun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado now you've reminded me of the Oculus "First Contact" program
Show threadthpJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado Now also run the STL modeler or at least the slicing program on the KayPro II to /really/ prove we could have had home 3D printers in the 80s ;)
Show threadunlimitedbacon โ™พ๏ธ๐Ÿฅ“Jun 15, 2023
@thp @SamTornado That would be a ton of work but I think you could do a very very basic slicer that just rasters out the shape for each layer. Also you can't fit very bit STLs on a floppy disk.๐Ÿ˜‚
Show threadSam TornadoJun 17, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @thp
We had enough trouble getting Gcode to fit on a floppy... Maybe one day we'll spring for a 20MB hard drive ๐Ÿ˜…
Show threadMostly CloudyJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado so #nerdy. Love it
Show threadNafeon the BearJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado it has some neat retrofuturistic / lost-tech vibe, which is neat. Overall incredible, that this works.
Show threadDavid Cantrell ๐ŸJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado sweet! so does the printer understand G-code, or is your Z80 code translating that into printerese on the fly?
Show threadunlimitedbacon โ™พ๏ธ๐Ÿฅ“Jun 15, 2023
@DrHyde @SamTornado Yes, the printer speaks G-Code. It is the standard language for 3D printers.
Show threadDavid Cantrell ๐ŸJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado oh! how wonderful! i had always assumed that they used something new and exciting for no good reason just because that's what modern technology does!
Show threadtristar500Jun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado youโ€™re insane! I love this what an amazing thing.
Show threadClyde (GameTank Guy)Jun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado can you share some about your process getting files onto the Kaypro? I have a Kaypro 4 I've been struggling to download files to, despite being able to set up a terminal connection between it and my modern PC.
Show threadunlimitedbacon โ™พ๏ธ๐Ÿฅ“Jun 15, 2023
@clyde @SamTornado We found some programs called PCGET and PCPUT. I don't remember the exact process, but it involved typing some assembly in by hand and compiling it on the Kaypro.
Show threadSam TornadoJun 17, 2023
@clyde @unlimitedbacon
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dGRqzZrq3HkJ6P2bN8mdMuf0oI49rg3817W-NGZwHzE/edit?usp=sharing
Google Docs: Sign-in

Access Google Docs with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).

Show threadDavide BucciJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado I love this!
Show threadMichal NemecekJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado yes, but the amount of processing power required to turn a 3D model into G-code with supports would probably be very expensive in the 80s ๐Ÿ˜‚
Show threadvinceJun 15, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado Hello, you can try using Kermit to send files from PC to Kaypro.
Show threadSam TornadoJun 17, 2023
@vince @unlimitedbacon
Yes, that's what we ultimately ended up using, but our Kaypro didn't come with a Kermit disk.
So we had to type-in a much simpler program (PCGet I think) in assembly, which we used to upload Kermit and save it to a floppy disk.
Show threadEli the BeardedJun 16, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado Stupid patents stopping progress
Show threadTim ๐ŸŽฎJun 24, 2023
@unlimitedbacon @SamTornado @foone in case no-one's tagged you in this yet