Typositoire 
TalonAlright, listen up. I see a lot of discussion getting way too heated because you've got people with perfect English on one side, and people just struggling to get themselves understood in a language they don't speak well on the other, and then both sides just don't get what the other is saying and then things explode. I've seen this so, so many times. And honestly all this tells me is that it's really, really easy for English speaking people to think that since we have a lot of good English speakers on the internet, or that that is the bubble they always find themselves in, that everybody does. And this is so very much not the case and y'all should be careful. You're making enemies you don't necessarily have to make just because you don't consider that the person on the other side can't express themselves clearly and is just doing the best they can.
English is really difficult. I get words wrong all the time. I don't know what different common phrases mean sometimes. Sometimes I'll say something weird and I thought it meant one thing when it meant another. English is *not* my first language. I'd consider myself to be relatively good at expressing myself in it, but I'm not perfect. Far from it. Add to this that some people just struggle expressing themselves in general. It's really hard to tell just how well someone speaks the language just by reading some text, because we potentially have a lot of time to think things through before we post, or even paste it into a grammar and spell checker before we do.
But grammar checkers don't help us when we get an idiom wrong. And yes I had to look up how to spell idiom, too.
x0@talon And good AI translation won't help with common idioms either I think, it'd be a hell of a translator if it could.
@x0 It'll be really difficult because some idioms are just not translatable at all. There might just not be such an idiom in the language you're translating to and at that point the AI would have to either rephrase the entire point, or skip the idiom entirely.
Mans R
Marie Elizabeth Bayar@talon English is one of the hardest languages to learn. Even though I learned English and my mother tongue at the same time, I find that sometimes I have trouble myself. Some things just sound weird to me. You do really well though. I applaud you.
miki@talon Having a “fix my language” or “make this sound like I was a <profession>” feature will probably be a must have in most writing / social media apps over the next few years. These things have the potential to make AI the greatest force against classism of all time, and this is already happening, with demonstrably great results.
@miki I'd be careful with that because idioms are notoriously difficult to transform. I don't like overly dry text and will stop reading it, and I like a bit of personality to shine through the actual text. Just a little bit of understanding from people reading would already help a lot. Sometimes you might not be able to actually check what the AI is saying due to language barriers, and then you're right back at square one.
@talon I mean things like “translate “previous programmer did shitty jobs, I need to fix code before I can do what you want” into a professional email. People with even the most basic command of English, who now struggle in the job market because of communication issues, can now write like natives. It’s not translation, but it’s not supposed to be,
@talon I would genuinely enjoy studying here a lot more if our professors used GPT to fix their English.
@talon I'm learning a second language, so I can sympathize with you wholeheartedly. And yes, English is my native language, but I get words wrong all the time myself. English is a hard language to grasp, some times even for a native speaker. I can't imagine having to learn it, and especially if you're trying to learn it in America. Take it from an American; a lot of people here are sheltered to the US and think that those who can't speak English are stupid. Part of why I hate American culture.
@talon I'm guilty of this, and do need the reminder. Thanks. :)
donkey herder, fowl friend@talon as a monolingual, and an american, I’m always just a bit honored that y’all are going to the effort to talk to us in English. Of course you don’t always use the same words I’d use - neither do any of the other former British colonies. That’s part of the fun of the internet!
das-g@talon If only there was a language just as expressive as English, but easier & faster to learn as a foreign language, because it was designed with that goal. A language with a flow just as natural as most ethnic languages, but with much more regular & much simpler grammar & with a modular vocabulary that helps you understand even words & terms you don't yet know. A language that is (while not a perfectly level playing field) no country's & no people's property, nor that of any group of …
@talon … countries or peoples, but belonging to all of Humanity. A language that has proven its usability not just for efficient communication and fair discourse, but also for art and culture, for fiction, poetry, song lyrics and most other genres of literature for now already over 135 years. A language that despite its unchangeable core (which prevents schisms in a globally dispersed speakership) has proven its ability to evolve and adapt to new developments, circumstances and sentiments.
@talon A language that, despite being a planned one, is (itself, not extending to all works in it) free of "intellectual property" claims such as copyright, patents & trademarks, & thus open to be learned and used by anyone. A language with a phonetic orthography & simple, completely regular pronunciation rules. A language drawing a majority of its morphemes from other languages in widespread use, so you are likely to recognize some of them—without pulling in those other languages' complications
Such a language already exists. It's name is #Esperanto.
It's not perfect, far from it even. But it's still incredibly good in the aspects stated above, & overall much better than most alternatives for international & global communication, such as
• everyone learning Latin
• everyone learning French
• everyone learning English
• everyone learning Mandarin
• using "AI"-powered automatic translation for everything
And it's not out to replace native languages. Not at all. Being relatively easy to learn, it even leaves more time to tend to them.
@das_g that does sound similar to the beginning of quite a few conlangs I'd assume. Languages like that I'd imagine are quite hard to make, especially because languages aren't static. They always change and evolve. That's why language is so inherently messy. Right? Everything that grows and evolves naturally seems to have a certain level of chaos to it.
@talon AFAIK, most #conlang|s aren't being actively used, many not even by their creators. Quite some aren't even intended for everyday use, but rather for fiction (to appear in fiction, not to author fiction in them), for the entertainment of creating them, or other purposes. Some aren't easy to learn, some not easy & natural to use, some lack expressive power or nuance. And not all conlangs are free of "intellectual property" claims. Only few have been used uninterrupted for over a century.
Kara Goldfinch@talon Spot on.
@talon I struggle with English even though I'm a native speaker. I'm probably dyslexic, and often find it difficult to get what I want to say down on paper.
@talon The people that go on about so called blind spelling issues need to see my dad's spelling. He's sighted and his is far worse. So yeah I think it runs in the family in my case.
Stellarator 🏳️🌈🌮@talon This doesn't apply just to debates/arguments. I've only recently been becoming aware of just how many non-native English speakers I talk to on the internet, in English. I've been trying to tone down the fanciness of how I sometimes speak/type and focus more on understandability than sounding clever. I at least hope it's been helping.
The internet is for everyone. And since at the moment the internet is in large part happening in English, it seems only fair to try to make the things one adds to the internet understandable to as many people as possible.
@talon A lot of people connect the lacking language skills with stupidity. AKA if someone doesn’t speak perfect english, people feel this person is probably not intelligent / fluent in whatever area is being talked about. This is very wrong assumption to make.
@talon When I first started learning English, there were so many times when I couldn't express myself well and phrased things not in the best way, even though I didn't mean to. Now I sometimes think about it and feel so bad. I start to realize how people might've taken some things I said, and it's so embarrassing. So many conversations could've been so different if my English was better.
@talon I like to have some interactions with people in languages other than my native ones. Besides the opportunity for interesting discussions, it serves as a reminder of how much others have to struggle when using English.
@talon French speaking here from Quebec 😬 . One of my first interaction here was exactly this. I wrote something, dude made fun of my syntax. Blocked him and so far everything has been smooth sailing. It's easy to assume that everyone on the internet is a native English speaker but nop :/ Sometimes things just get out wrong xD Something makes sense for me in French, I try to somewhat translate it, it's still funny for me but yeah comes weird for native speakers! Be constructive, not destructive.