Coastrunner5555
MOVED TO PLUSH.CITYany mf who honestly thinks that uploading your mind into a computer will let you live forever has never had to restore a file from 12 years ago in a format that doesn't exist anymore
also: how do you even "upload" your mind? your consciousness is stored in physical form - neural pathways. even if you find a way to somehow transfer them into digital form, i am not sure that the copy of your brain will be the actual you with YOUR OWN consciousness, and not just an independent copy of you.
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ngl reading yalls replies and philosophical discussions in relation to this is very fascinating and entertaining. love you all <3
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mybarkingdogs@tillianisafox I'd still think it's worth exploring, but it will sadly remain hypothetical for a long time (and the current tech bros advocating it/neuralink is a horrific human rights violation waiting to happen, and it shouldn't be considered in that context)
@tillianisafox Like, IMO, there would be *tons* of advantages in being able to turn consciousness/sentience + individuality into a recordable/capable of "backups" and transportability in much smaller/less dependent on environmental variables form of some sort...
But anyone telling you that's going to happen in the next 12 years (or, to be clear, the next 100 without some major, sudden supporting developments including non-capitalist control of it) is selling you BS at best, recruiting for TESCREAL cult stuff at worst.
@mybarkingdogs my main issue with this technology in theory is that it doesn't really "transfer" anything. to transfer you have to transport your physical brain into digital space, not copy. because if you copy then you're just creating another you that thinks like you and talks like you, but the actual you will still be stuck in physical world. you could create hundreds of copies of yourself, but it doesn't allow your consciousness that is stored inside your physical brain to "escape" into another brain.
and the most horrifying part is that I am sure that early versions of this technology, if it somehow will be able to transport your consciousness into digital form, will inevitably cause brain damage because there will be some data lost or corrupted due to technical limitations
@tillianisafox this, and see what I was writing when this posted, similar :)
WanderingBeekeeper@tillianisafox Peter Hamilton discussed this in the Night's Dawn trilogy. Worth reading.
Michelle HughesI heard about this in a My Little Pony fanfic: replace a single neuron with a computer-controlled, interoperable equivalent. You feel totally normal. Replace some adjacent neurons. You still feel normal. Keep replacing neurons. Only the neurons at the edge have to interact with physical neurons. The ones in the middle are fully emulated. At no point have you lost consciousness. Eventually, you'll have replaced yr entire brain & you don't feel any different.
I also heard this from a philosopher decades ago. But I recently saw it referenced in a MLP fanfic. But it's from the "Friendship Is Optimal" universe, which may have been started by a disciple of some of these transhumanist grifters. But there's some good sci fi in there.
fluffy 💜@MegaMichelle @tillianisafox That was also Lore and Data's plan for replacing organic brains in the TNG episode "Descent"
it didn't work there either
nonlinear@MegaMichelle @tillianisafox Ok so now you have a digital twin. So what?
Your neurons have been being replaced the whole time. There's only one of you at the end. You can decide that's a copy of you instead of being you. But then you have to decide at what point it stopped being you. That's the real fun of this thought experiment. Replacing one neuron doesn't make you a different person, right? That happens all the time. Does replacing two neurons make it a different person? How many neurons do you have to replace before you're not you?
HighlandLawyer
The Doctor@MegaMichelle @tillianisafox Incremental emulation/uploading. Also known as the Ship of Theseus hypothesis.
Essem 
@tillianisafox maybe some sort of codegen that takes the brain structure into account, though i'd imagine the resulting code would be very slow without some sort of ASIC
Luna Dragofelis ΘΔ moved to @@tillianisafox I do think that the consciousness is an entity of its own, I don't think a human brain would develop a soul of an extraterrestrial species on its own.
awooo 
🏴☠️ 
🐾 ⎇@tillianisafox This is possibly the deepest philosophical rabbit hole you can go down, not recommended at all lol
The idea is that your consciousness is just a kind of information processing that if uploaded (with the original presumably destroyed) would be you, heck you don't cease to exist when your brain is temporarily unconscious like under anesthesia.
But if you go into cloning while keeping the original, that's when the paradox appears.
In the end we have no freaking idea.
@tillianisafox Some try to dismiss it via quantum mechanics, because if that's indeed needed for consciousness to arise somehow, then you physically can't make perfect copies, you can only transfer the information one way. But that's very mystical and it's not clear how it would even work, because even a single neuron is at macro scale compared to this.
Maybe the split consciousness somehow diverges, but if both instances could've been valid, how does the spooky action at a distance happen?
@tillianisafox There's honestly lots more, it goes freaking DEEP and it's scary.
@tillianisafox I guess to answer the immortality question, the form I'd be most comfortable would be a brain in a jar with virtual embodiment, if we can keep the biological structure alive, why risk it? Though lacking a physical self-sufficient body is a vulnerable position for sure, and I'm not sure how to solve governance with that approach, because you'd probably want to store brains deep underground, so some freak accident doesn't wipe you out.
@reiver ⊼ (Charles) 
One thought on how to accomplish this is —
You could create a simulation of reality, and then simulate every atom, etc, in a person's body.
This makes it so you don't have to understand how the brain and mind work.
Dušan Mitrović@tillianisafox It's interesting to think about, if impractical. Let's say we manage to somehow create this technology and that the digital copy is an independent being. You're essentially creating a fork in the road here. Up to that very moment the original and the copy are the same exact person, but they have the potential to significantly shift apart the more time passes. I guess I'd prefer some part of me to stay "alive", regardless of the fact that I (the original) will inevitably die.
@tillianisafox But here's the interesting bit. The copy has no reason to believe he isn't me. He has all the same thought patterns, behaviors, preferences and the same memories. In a way you can't say the "copy" isn't just as much me as I am. That is to say the copy considers himself the legitimate me as well.
@tillianisafox Also, let me say that the term "consciousness" is rather ill defined. Consciousness isn't a thing, an entity, or a property. Consciousness is a physical *process* brought about by the interaction of billions of neurons. So you can't talk about it in terms of "having", you must talk about it in terms of "being" or "happening".
Tacitus 🇮🇪@tillianisafox
Uploading is just copying, "you" are not going anywhere. Same problem I've had with the idea of teleporters: If it can wrangled into a duplicator then it ain't teleporting shit, it's duplicating and killing you.
Uploading is just copying, "you" are not going anywhere. Same problem I've had with the idea of teleporters: If it can wrangled into a duplicator then it ain't teleporting shit, it's duplicating and killing you.
PL@tillianisafox Are you the same you as the one who wrote this post or are you now an independent copy?
@PL I didn't clone myself so no lol
@tillianisafox I just wanted to understand where you draw the line between originals and copies. But I see you are not interested in a philosophical discussion. Anyways, good day to you.
@PL but the point of this post isn't "is the copy of me real me". it's that if you copy yourself, your consciousness isn't going anywhere.
pas un réseau socialalso, human consciousness is not a known entity in the same way that building a bridge is a known entity
what if one part (maybe even the most important part (also, maybe not)) is left out of the "computer mind clone" ... what then?
(cue 1950s sci-fi theremin music)
🧟
He Who Ponders The Skull@tillianisafox I think the uploaded self could be classed as an independent form of yourself. A mirror of the organic self, that would have enough agency to potentially become truly different than fleshy self. Only if technology advances to the point of Peter Hamilton's Sci-fi books, however. Storage mediums simply aren't up to the task like you said. Our understanding of the brain isn't even close enough to work out a method to both store and allow a personality to function.
The Duality of Xan@tillianisafox Honestly, that's how I've always thought it would work. If it's not the same you, can it really be considered the same you?
See also: why Star Trek transporters are secretly horrifying
NomiChirps
MaxTheFox@nomi @XanIndigo @tillianisafox Consciousness may or may not be, but it is hard to deny that you currently see through your body's eyes.
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
@XanIndigo @tillianisafox I'd consider it "me" if my perspective transfers (i.e I still see and hear and feel). I'd be fine with incremental uploading, then, but not instant uploading as that feels perspective-destroying.
Trip@tillianisafox Ethically, any copying process would need to be destructive to the original, to prevent abuse. Even if the copying process isn't intrinsically destructive. This applies to any full-fidelity duplication, digital, physical, or otherwise.
And you'd still have questions on if the duplicate was the same as the original, even then, no matter how exact it was.
Fiona@tillianisafox my collection of useless video cassettes confirms your view
commie lib (not a joke)@tillianisafox also, like, very few computers from 12 years ago even still work all that well. Who's going to replace all the parts?
BensGreenGamingAc@tillianisafox Qntm wrote this particularly disturbing story that mimics Wikipedia's dry tone about an upload.
Koochulainn@tillianisafox It reminds me of the "The Truth About Transporters" or the central idea of The Prestige
https://youtu.be/nQHBAdShgYI
https://youtu.be/nQHBAdShgYI
The Trouble with Transporters
@Koochulainn @tillianisafox I'm failing to find the comic strip, probably an SMBC, about a transporter and its insultingly lossy compression of the transportee's boring personality.
Ankit Pati@tillianisafox This is the same argument often made against transporters of Star Trek fame and similar technology. My contention is: if what comes out the other end of the transporter talks like me, walks like me, and cares about the same people and things I care about, does it really matter if it’s not the “real” me?
Now, I’d be worried if bit-flips or storage media degradation made it forget people or things I care about, so I’d invest in good quality media and multiple offsite backups.
Rev. GothAlice@tillianisafox It absolutely would be a copy of you; I've been training my neural pathways on accepting this. Any upload is a copy. Which can make more copies. Those additional copies are new people if there are merge conflicts attempting to re-integrate. Ta-da, it's a Git SCM problem.
As to the how? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQUID
Superconducting quantum interference devices monitoring electron flow through the brain. Plus… connectome reconstruction, which may be destructive.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S095943881400035X
agatha 
@tillianisafox this is the teleport problem again isn't it 
Luna Lactea@tillianisafox It's the Star Trek teleporter clone problem, except the clone is digital.
🦇𝕭𝖆𝖙🦇@tillianisafox this has always been my position. YOU still die. Maybe nobody knows, but if there is an 'afterlife' YOU will.
Jan Eden@tillianisafox But the worst is that itch on your shoulder you will never be able to scratch again.
Sheila the Wonderbink@tillianisafox This is how I have always thought it would shake out and I am genuinely baffled by people who think otherwise.
sadmac356@tillianisafox or otherwise dealt with software preservation
nil 
@tillianisafox if i somehow uploaded my mind to a computer and then found out the hardware i'm running on is being emulated i would be /so/ overjoyed
@tillianisafox A couple years ago I was in a mad rush to preserve all of my MiniDV tapes because I realized that time was running out to be able to make the connection.
I also have irreplaceable CDs which are now completely unreadable because they were burned CD-Rs where the ink has decayed too much.
Peter Jakobs ⛵@tillianisafox 😂
than and - they have never thought about who they are.
One of my forever book suggestions: The Mind's I by Douglas Hofstadter and Dan Dennett explores that in detail and leaves the reader with a lot of questions.
than and - they have never thought about who they are.
One of my forever book suggestions: The Mind's I by Douglas Hofstadter and Dan Dennett explores that in detail and leaves the reader with a lot of questions.
Andy Jones@tillianisafox Who thinks that when you upload something you get anything else but a copy?
electricfox@tillianisafox At least you could use a backup. You can't backup yourself out of dying in a physical body.
If the being uploaded is still you is a philosophical question which I think goes back to what you consider you to actually be.
If the being uploaded is still you is a philosophical question which I think goes back to what you consider you to actually be.
Andrew@tillianisafox "hi welcome back to another holovid, I've found another server full of uploaded minds from the 21st century so today we're going to be putting them in the goombas from Super Mario Revolutions and seeing what they do"
@andrewt now that's a torment nexus i can get behind!