Mastodawn

dan.the.donut May 30, 2023

Annalee Newitz 🍜

History shows that patriarchy is not natural, nor does it begin with fathers in families. According to Angela Saini, author of the new book THE PATRIARCHS, patriarchy begins with state power, and slowly works its way into families. In addition, men did not gain power over women by being "stronger." They did it by setting up networks of political support -- and by systematically dismantling support for women. This recent LSE lecture from Saini is a fascinating listen. https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/patriarchy-where-did-it-all-begin/id279428154?i=1000614580804

‎LSE: Public lectures and events: Patriarchy: where did it all begin? on Apple Podcasts

‎Show LSE: Public lectures and events, Ep Patriarchy: where did it all begin? - 23 May 2023

Apple Podcasts

malena May 29, 2023

@annaleen link for pocket cast people

https://pca.st/episode/5fa107b7-2078-4dba-a001-e5af9b67e952

Patriarchy: where did it all begin? - LSE: Public lectures and events

Contributor(s): Bee Rowlatt, Angela Saini | Join us as Angela reveals the true roots of gendered oppression, and the complex history of how male domination became embedded in societies across the globe. Travelling to the world’s earliest known human settlements, and tracing cultural and political histories from the Americas to Asia, she overturns simplistic universal theories to show that what patriarchy is and how far it goes back really depends on where you are. Despite the push back against sexism and exploitation in our own time, even revolutionary efforts to bring about equality have often ended in failure and backlash. Saini examines what part every one of us plays in keeping patriarchy alive, and asks that we look beyond the old narratives to understand why it persists.

Pocket Casts

Annalee Newitz 🍜May 29, 2023

@seachanger thanks for adding that! I think you can watch it on YouTube as well.

Liz Walsh May 29, 2023

@annaleen you've given me a book to hold at the library and someone to listen to!

Annalee Newitz 🍜May 29, 2023

Ferrous May 29, 2023

@litazia
It took me several seconds to realise you probably don't mean a book to just physically hold at the library, perhaps hoping to spark interesting conversations or impress passing feminists...
@annaleen

sorry 🇵🇸☭May 29, 2023

@annaleen Is there a transcript of this somewhere? I'd much prefer reading to listening, if one exists.

Annalee Newitz 🍜May 29, 2023

@almaember it's based on a book called The Patriarchs so I'd recommend that if you can't find a transcript

Steffen Voß May 29, 2023

@annaleen Thank you for the tipp! There are so many false assumptions about the past. It's always cool to learn how complex the world is.
That is also what David Graeber wrote in "Beginnings": before there were nation states, people were able to leave communities if they didn't like how they were treated.

joene 🏴May 29, 2023

@kaffeeringe @annaleen This is also one of the conclusions of @PeterGelderloos in his #MustRead book 'Worshiping Power; An Anarchist View of Early State Formation'. https://www.akpress.org/worshipingpower.html / https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-worshipping-power

Worshiping Power

We need to stop thinking of the State as a potential vehicle for emancipation. From its origins, the State has never been anything other than a tool to accumulate power.

Mr. Completely May 29, 2023

@kaffeeringe @annaleen I was gonna say this feels very much in the Graeber school of thought - I'll see if the library has this one, hopefully so

Steffen Voß May 30, 2023

@mrcompletely @annaleen Angela Saini refers to it at around minute 39.

Levka May 30, 2023

@kaffeeringe @annaleen

See also:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56269264-the-dawn-of-everything

The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity

A dramatically new understanding of human history, chal…

Goodreads

Kathy E. Gill 🇺🇦May 29, 2023

Are you familiar with “The Chalice and The Blade” (1987, Riane Eisler)?

“It shows that war and the ‘war of the sexes’ are neither divinely nor biologically ordained.”

https://centerforpartnership.org/resources/books/the-chalice-and-the-blade-our-history-our-future/

The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future - The Center for Partnership Systems

By Riane Eisler The Chalice and the Blade tells a new story of our cultural origins. It shows that war and the “war of the sexes” are neither divinely nor biologically ordained. And it provides verification that a better future is possible — and is in fact firmly rooted in the haunting drama of what actually […]

The Center for Partnership Systems

Ponygirl May 30, 2023

@kegill @annaleen This book is eye opening!!

Kathy E. Gill 🇺🇦May 31, 2023

@Ponygirl @annaleen

Yes it is!

Kathy E. Gill 🇺🇦Jun 1, 2023

An Eastern saddle on an Appy just looks wrong! I spent my youth riding Western. 😂

Ponygirl Jun 1, 2023

@kegill I prefer my Australian stock saddle, but was feeling a bit English that day lol!

Kathy E. Gill 🇺🇦Jun 2, 2023

@Ponygirl 😂😂😂

a leah May 29, 2023

@annaleen ohh, her new book is out. She is so good at picking up the pulse of big societal change. She totally called all the bullshit of race science in her last book.

Ferrous May 29, 2023

@annaleen
Oh, she's also hosting a new six-part series on books exploring the science of sex and gender, as part of the Science Magazine Podcast! I was listening today.

This one talks about "The Female Turn: How Evolutionary Science Shifted Perceptions About Females." #scienceMagazinePodcast
https://podcastaddict.com/science-magazine-podcast/episode/158252602

Talking tongues, detecting beer, and shifting perspectives on females • Science Magazine Podcast - Podcast Addict

Why it’s so hard to understand the tongue, a book on a revolutionary shift toward studying the female of the species, and using proteomics to find beer in a painting First on the show this week, Staff Writer Elizabeth Pennisi joins host Sarah Crespi to talk tongues: Who has them, who doesn’t, and all their amazing elaborations. We also have the first in a new six-part series on books exploring the science of sex and gender. For this month’s installment, host Angela Saini talks with evolutionary biologist Malin Ah-King about her book The Female Turn: How Evolutionary Science Shifted Perceptions About Females. Finally, detecting beer in early 19th century Danish paintings. Heritage scientist Fabiana Di Gianvincenzo of the Heritage Science Laboratory at the University of Ljubljana talks about her Science Advances paper on using proteomics to dig out clues to artistic practices of the day and how they fit in with the local beer-loving culture. This week’s episode was produced with help from Podigy. About the Science Podcast Authors: Sarah Crespi; Angela Saini; Elizabeth Pennisi Episode page: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adi8592 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Podcast Addict

Shannon May 29, 2023

@annaleen That seems a bit hard to believe, but I'll listen.

Morten Bay May 30, 2023

@annaleen Sounds right to me. Studies of hunter-gatherer tribe social networks show the same thing.

Peter Relph May 30, 2023

@annaleen

Thank you, that is my education for today, that is why I woke up this morning 😃

Kerri Levine May 30, 2023

Mikela May 30, 2023

@annaleen if you haven't scene this before its pretty funny and really hits on patriarchy as coming from the state

https://means.tv/pages/papaandboy

Papa & Boy

An animated comedy about hierarchy, class, and the fraught relationship between children and the cruel societies they inherit.

Gabriela Noriega 🏳️‍⚧️ 🇧🇷May 30, 2023

@annaleen
so basically the state isn't one big family (like one enlightenment author sorta argued) but instead the family is more like a mini state?

This seems to checkout.

Ponygirl May 30, 2023

@annaleen The ancient Iroquois were matriarchal in lineage. They were an egalitarian society and shared leadership and spiritual guidance equally among the sexes. Violence against women was not tolerated and the women were strict practioners of birth control using the juneberries. It wasn't perfect, but it was better than their conquerors.

FirefighterGeek

The last thing I want to do is defend the patriarchy. To be clear I recognize that there is a lot of research proving that the more diverse the group leadership, the more successful it can be in a vast array of (nearly all?) circumstances.

That said, if there's no natural tendency toward patriarchy, why do we not see a far more even mix of matriarchal and (equitable?) social organizations historically around the world?

Annalee Newitz 🍜May 31, 2023

@FirefighterGeek Why not listen to the lecture I posted and find out?

FirefighterGeek

@annaleen time, mostly - but if you're saying this point is addressed, I'm curious.

My question is akin to one I ask the neo feudalists (libertarians). Specifically, if the fundamental tenet of what passes for their system is that the best system will beat out all the others, why isn't there a single example of their system currently extant, let alone successful.

Annalee Newitz 🍜May 31, 2023

@FirefighterGeek yes. this is literally the entire point of the lecture. it's only 30 minutes.

FirefighterGeek

@annaleen Okay, I listened (admittedly on background) and you touched on a lot of the things I generally believed already. I think there's a scale factor I didn't hear though, where once governance becomes distinct from daily life, and until women have more control over reproductive choices, there's a disadvantage to competing for those roles. Once established, any power structure seeks to keep power, and gender becomes an easy "us/them". I can't prove any of this, of course.

Karl Magnacca May 31, 2023

@annaleen She never really talks about that though. She compares patriarchal vs. *matrilineal* societies as if the latter aren't also patriarchal, just less so. There aren't any mentioned that are equitable let alone matriarchal. Eg she cites an example where the women convene to try to get the men of both their groups to stop fighting. If the women had the real power there, they could just order it to stop.

Annalee Newitz 🍜May 31, 2023

@kmagnacca I think you may have missed her point about matrilineal and matrilocal societies. The idea is that matrilocal societies foster female networks of support and that creates power. (vs. patrilocal societies, where women are removed from their homes to live with strangers) She cites a number of cultures, past and present, where women have power equal to men. Women can have power even when there is patriarchy -- I mean, look around!

Zathras Jun 1, 2023

@annaleen @donmelton Wait, I thought this was about the past? 🤨