Ron K Jeffries 
GlyphPeople make fun of vi because it’s hard to get out, but it says right there: “esc : w q”. Whereas getting out of emacs apparently requires the gradual realization over the course of decades that all of your heroes are monsters and the ideological basis of the liberatory movements you championed in your youth are inherently flawed, and they are futile exercises
This is a joke, but only because you still don’t actually get out of emacs after all that stuff
OK so it's fun to be snarky, but, I do legitimately think that Emacs has a lot of interesting ways to think about text and interactive programming, and new people *should* immerse themselves in it and learn it. The community is far less toxic than it once was. But it's hard to get excited about it and advocate for it when it's dragging around *so* much baggage, not least of which in the form of its founder
Steve Purcell@glyph I feel like MELPA encouraged a whole new collaborative community around Emacs, so the natural next step was to declare it immoral and ban any mention of it in the docs.
@sanityinc It is, in fact, MELPA that gives me hope for the future of the project. The fact that they've got an intensely adversarial relationship with the core team just reassures me even more that they're good people, and correct
@glyph I wouldn't say we're intensely adversarial, but we certainly refused to remove packages that are for use with nonfree software.
@glyph and don't get me started on the idea that popular packages like magit should get merged into Emacs where they can instantly be out of date.
@glyph If caring primarily about usefulness to users makes us look adversarial, I think that's a bad sign. 😁
@sanityinc oh heyyy I did not put two and two together here, we have definitely interacted before :) https://github.com/melpa/melpa/issues/3004#issuecomment-292699579
@sanityinc but yes it's a bad sign about *somebody* but I don't think that somebody is you
@glyph yes, and I've appreciated your mostly security-related interactions there -- you helped nudge things in the right direction.
Eleanor Saitta
aeva@glyph I do wonder on occasion how hard it would be to apply the good ideas and start fresh without the bad and build something that feels a bit more modern
I AM BANKSY ☕ / 🗑🔥@glyph Ah, seems I'm not alone.
John Mark Ockerbloom@glyph When I was at CMU, some folks were still running the predecessor to GNU Emacs, which was written by alumnus James Gosling. It was a rewrite of the original Emacs by Guy Steele and David Moon, and was the version that brought Emacs to Unix and made a Lisp-like machine a key user-facing feature. Systems as successful as Emacs are almost never one person's work, though it's not the only such system where someone who came in later often gets retroactively credited as sole inventor or founder.
@JMarkOckerbloom my favorite example of this: https://www.ign.com/articles/2001/11/12/deus-ex-2
"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
Deus Ex 2 - IGN
Not only did the original Deus Ex walk away with our own Game of the Year Award; it even managed to snag the same honor from our readers. By all accounts Warren Spector's open-ended take on action and role-playing games was a huge boost for the industry. The fact that it was set in a dark, conspiracy-laden context didn't hurt either. Now Warren Spector has moved out of the project director's chair in deference to Harvey Smith, the lead designer from Deus Ex. Warren's taking a bigger role in overall studio development now. Although he still gets his hands dirty, he's spending more and more time trying to cultivate teams that can work on different games simultaneously. He sees the studio as the source of several new immersive games -- games that don't hardcode solutions to every situation. Warren's dream is to create a game that functions very much like real life. In other words, he wants to simulate worlds, not puzzles.
Shriram Krishnamurthi@glyph The beauty for me is I spend all day in Emacs and spend not a moment thinking about its founder.
Jamu Kakar@glyph I’ve used emacs forever, and still do, though I feel like I’m becoming a relic year by year. Anyway, a project I want to do one day is create a website of text editing patterns. Things like copy and paste, transpose characters, transform rectangular regions, jump to location and back, etc. with examples of how to execute these operations in different editors. The patterns are more interesting than tools. People should use what works with their habits and preferences.
@jkakar hasn't there forever been a book about the thinking behind Emacs-like editors, "The Craft of Text Editing" by Craig Finseth?
gunstick@glyph e.m.a.c.s. = eight megabytes and constantly swapping.
Only 8 megabytes??? Wow, thats a small footprint!
Only 8 megabytes??? Wow, thats a small footprint!
Aidan@glyph wow this is an old one ... Emacs with vi key-bindings was pretty rad. I like vi because it has small patterns that are repeatable and composable.
These days I use VSCode in vi mode, and Obsidian for notes, also with vi mode.
Super nice to be able to use other tools and still make use of that muscle memory.
George BThe nicest thing about VSCode in vi mode is that find and replace shows you live output so if you forget which flavor of regexp it uses exactly (because you've been doing things that use slightly different syntaxes) it's easy to iterate fast
Christina JenniferNice, I assumed there was a way to set it in regular vim but never actually looked into it that much since I have VSCode open basically any time I want to dona complex find and replace anyway
wuest
nelhage@glyph just @ me next time, man
wiredog@glyph
I use pico.
I use pico.
Claus Aranha
Gerd Flaig@glyph "get out of Emacs" - why on earth would any sane person ever want to do such a thing?
bblfish@glyph use emacs in vi mode.
Ogre👹alMukhṭār🦁alSenoussi🤴@glyph
Is escaping to a shell whose default editing mode is "emacs" really leaving emacs?
🤷🏾
@perinteger I hear a really slowed down version of "Non, je ne regrette rien" playing from everywhere around me...
Einfach Nein 
The thought of exiting an operating system or even emacs is as sick as bringing your kitchen sink itself out to the garbage can.
Instead it only took me an hour and a half to twiddle with configs so now tmux is my login shell and I can leave open emacs even longer.
aerique@glyph The secret is to bend Emacs to your will and make it do your bidding.
Only to realize decades later the master - slave relationship got reversed at some point.
@glyph god too real 😭 I've yet to find a replacement for org-mode
Frost, wolf of winter 🐺🎄
@glyph :wq makes sense. You have a Normal Commandline. And – crucially – if you start hammering ^C it TELLS you how to quit.
Emacs? "C-c C-c C-c is undefined"
"C-c C-c C-c is undefined"
How do I QUIIIIIIT???
"C-c C-c C-c is undefined"
Eric K3FNB (they/them)@glyph yes, after such disapointment, you turn to the last thing in your life that you still have agency over, your .emacs file.
Dave@glyph This one hit close to home.
Tom Bellin 
@glyph So... what if I never got out. What if that first time, I stumbled upon a key combination that created a virtual reality simulation of the entire universe?
That actually might explain a lot...
@tob you can kill-emacs any time you like, but you can never leave
John Blair@glyph I'm in this post and I don't like it.
Lafe@glyph People always criticize :wq but ZZ is just sitting right there, ignored.
@lafe ok look I’m willing to say that free software is a pointless scam perpetuated by out of touch ideologues with an oversimplified and incorrect approach to the interface between technology and society but I know better than to touch *this* third rail
Joel Wirāmu, Pauling
Lulu@glyph I'm honestly curious about your view on this point, flamers be damned. It's not hard to argue that FSF was a failure, but why do you think free software proper is a scam? Is it from a technical perspective like "goes too far" (à la OSI) or "doesn't go far enough" (à la anticapitalist software), or is it because it's not possible to decouple it from he who shall not be named without cognitive dissonance?
I've been pondering "what is to be done?" for a while, in light of the disarray the FOSS community is in (if one still exists), and only drawing blanks; so I'd appreciate a different perspective on this matter.
I've been pondering "what is to be done?" for a while, in light of the disarray the FOSS community is in (if one still exists), and only drawing blanks; so I'd appreciate a different perspective on this matter.
@erkin not the OP, but I read fluff followed by a cop-out, so ...
Ken Butler has moved
Jon 404
RAK@jon404: You've got toes and a nose, right?
@raktheundead Ahh, that's what I was doing wrong!
Daniel Barlow
Quinn Norton
Éibhear 🔭@glyph C-x k [RETURN]
Fredrik@glyph the only one time I tried emacs I had to do a kill -9 in the console to get out, otoh, I have set -o vi in my shell, easier to navigate than arrows :)
Patrick H. Madden@glyph One can only truly appreciate Emacs by breaking both pinky fingers, and then having them set at an angle so that control is easier to reach. Yes, there are other keys, but control is special, sacred. The pinky break was a rite of passage in my youth, when I left behind childish punch cards, and merged my soul with a VT52.
David Mooney@pmadden <blue> <7> EXIT
Sean Eric Fagan@glyph Oh please "control-z kill -9 %0" is so much more satisfying.
Brian C. Martinson, PhD@glyph I feel attacked.😆
@bcmFietser it's all said with love. well, I mean, for most people. not for a few, very specific people, but if you feel attacked here you already know who they are :)