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G. Willow WilsonTwitter somehow gets worse week by week--right now it is an unusable swamp of right wing conspiracy theory, wave after wave of racism (there is currently an "invasion" underway at the southern border that must be stopped by lethal force) crypto bros, and bots selling high-follower accounts. Amazing really.
I've been play-testing absolutely every twitter "replacement" (including Bluesky) and the general vibe I get is this: most former power-users want something exactly like Twitter but w/o the nazis and grifters. Bluesky is attempting to start conversations about federation now and users are not having it. They want a centralized platform w/a clear and consistently enforced TOS. Federation remains a very hard sell to the average person.
The vibe on Bluesky is classically leftist/socialist, so the bootstrappy libertarian message of federation (don't like the rules in this house? Go build your own house) is reaaaaallly rubbing people the wrong way. I'm glad those conversations are happening, frankly, bc that's an ideological barrier I don't think the apostles of federation anticipated.
I am not taking sides, btw; I'm just sharing what I have observed anecdotally. I'm going to try to grab some (anonymized) screenshots from Bluesky to show you what I mean.
Also, please, I beg you: do not respond to this thread with HOW IS FEDERATION LIBERTARIAN AND CENTRALIZATION SOCIALIST?? HUH?? HUH???? I do not speak for these people, I am nobody's therapist, I am not a political historian, I am just telling you what I personally have observed. I am not a customer service representative for Bluesky leftists.
Lorenzo T. R. Flores@GWillow thanks for sharing your observations of these different platforms, including the update on Twitter. I usually love observing user trends like this but just can't invest the time or brain space right now.
Nick Wester@GWillow I’m reading How To Be Perfect and it gets into the difference between Kant and Scanlon and I see it here. Mastodon is contractualism (this is the minimum we can all agree on and start from there), Bluesky seems to be Kant (here are the universal rules, don’t break them). Neither is good or bad, just different.
infinite love ⴳ@GWillow sorry ^^;
This is Hell@GWillow My biggest issue w/ Bluesky is those whack-a-doodle terms and conditions.
@scentedmeat Their TOS is fairly standard across extent social media platforms. The problem is 90% of users never read the TOS on their extent social media platforms.
Cassandra is only carbon now@GWillow That is truly a fascinating dynamic. I guess I never really saw the federation concept as being inherently a libertarian snub of government, so much as a snub of corporate-controlled social media; it's fascinating to see people come away with such a different understanding/impression?
UncannyKyle@GWillow I get, my wife understands absolutely no part of “federation” but we’re in the demographic where a lot of us are just on Snapchat and group texts.
Ben 🌹 
@GWillow kind of interesting to hear that about the Bluesky vibe, considering how I'd expect those people to be more likely to end up here, and not on Jack's Latest Project.
@bensaufley Why? Large central governments are essential to socialist projects. This "build your own server if you don't like the rules on someone else's" is a rugged-individualist proposition. It's antithetical to the idea of having everyone in the same tent with the same rights and responsibilities.
@GWillow Right, but Bluesky *is* still a federated proposition from day 1, *and* it's created by a libertarian douche, whom most leftists don't like. There's also an argument that federated "communes" are pretty well-aligned with leftist ideals, but I don't know how good of an argument it is.
@bensaufley Yes, and Bluesky-ers are hitting this brick wall as we speak. They went to Bluesky bc they didn't like the 'each server functions as its own HOA' model of Masto. And now they're having to reckon with the idea that by being on Bluesky they're functionally on Masto, under the aegis of an ex-crypto bro.
@GWillow Yeah and that's what surprises me. It seems people went there under false assumptions; it was never centralized. “decentralized" is in the first sentence of the Wikipedia page for it. It's Mastodon + a few "missing" Twitter features (?) + tech bro
FWIW I'm still waiting for an invite, hahah. I'm def curious about it, and I'll go wherever I find I get the most out of, probably, but I'd be disappointed if we ended up under Jack's domain all over again.
@bensaufley I don't think most people who are on Bluesky right now really grasped what was meant by decentralized. Bluesky is also far more open to nudity and overtly sexual content, which I think is also a big draw; Masto is seen over there as a platform for prudes and scolds. It's partially an image and messaging issue.
@GWillow That one also fascinates me: I've seen so many people talk about mastodon being a platform of scolds, but I've like … never seen anyone actually scolding. I believe it exists, but it's definitely not a universal experience. I suppose there's likely some tendency towards dogma among Masto users that is not as prevalent among Bluesky users by nature of the OSS/Jack divide.
@bensaufley I encountered quite a bit of scolding when I first got here, but I simply ignored it, which is the wisest course of action on any social media platform, centralized or otherwise.
Anti-authoritarian@bensaufley @GWillow I know y'all didn't want to talk about politics, but in many ways I think federation can be seen from an anti-monopoly perspective( which I think bluesky social has a reasonable avenue to address) and also leftish/liberal values of separation of public and capitalist/industry spaces (why should capitalists surveil and try monetize people just chatting amongst themselves online).
I guess I just wanted to put this perspective out there in case anyone was interested using some of these talking points to spread fedi which I am all for 🙂 . I apologize again if I am being a bother.
I guess I just wanted to put this perspective out there in case anyone was interested using some of these talking points to spread fedi which I am all for 🙂 . I apologize again if I am being a bother.
Tattie (old account)@bensaufley @GWillow scolds maybe, but... anti-nudity? That's a very different Fediverse to the one I'm on! 😂
@Tattie @bensaufley The one I'm on is extremely anti-nudity (no NSFW content and/or if you post NSFW content without a filter you get banned on the first offense, calls to defederate servers that include NSFW content, etc)
Peter Butler@bensaufley @GWillow But it was never “decentralized.” It claims to be “decentralized” … but there’s still only one instance
We honestly don’t even know if it will ever be decentralized
Misuse Case@GWillow @bensaufley An ex-crypto-bro who likes federation because it removes responsibility for him/his company to take a hard line on fascists using the service. The whole point of federation on BlueSky is “if you don’t like the fascists move to a different server and block their server, it’s not our problem.”
@MisuseCase @bensaufley Yes, exactly this, you put it well.
@MisuseCase @GWillow I think that emphasizes a philosophical difference with Mastodon, which adopts federation *from the other perspective*: rather than "if you don't like it, leave," it's “people should be able to choose their own communities and create their own safe spaces”. Yes, it's the same thing under the hood, but when you start from the place of "protecting users" rather than “avoiding responsibility" you get different results
@MisuseCase @GWillow (which is not to say Mastodon gets it right, just that I am willing to grant the people who built and are building Mastodon a more charitable view as they *try* to get it right)
@bensaufley @GWillow Also the decentralized and federated nature of it actually means something. In a platform like BlueSky, which is under the control of a billionaire, it means only as much as he allows it to mean. He could probably spike any future instance on BlueSky that he wants to, whenever he wants to, for whatever reason. On Mastodon nobody can do that.
Proxima Centauri@MisuseCase @GWillow @bensaufley That's exactly what Mastodon is:
“if you don’t like the fascists move to a different server and block their server, it’s not our problem.”
Bluesky will end up looking just like Mastodon if the federation spreads. Right now a lot of people in Bluesky are from leftists group as said earlier, and they expect them to block everyone behaving badly.
Because let's be real, who else is feeling homeless now? Not the ones comfortably staying on Twitter!!
@proximacentauri @GWillow @bensaufley “Move to a different server and block the fascist servers” is fine in a truly decentralized platform, but BlueSky isn’t that. It’s ultimately owned and controlled by Jack, who is going to use the federated model to absolve himself from dealing with fascists, trolls, etc. on the server.
@MisuseCase @GWillow @bensaufley JACK IS BETTING ON NOSTR
I have followed, and!!! BLUESKY HAS WAR WITH NOSTR, it was declared today. Jack LINKED TO this in NOSTR:
https://fiatjaf.com/ab1127fb.html
THEN! HEAR THIS! DHOLMS who is BLUESKY DEVELOPER WROTE:
"nostr is like a hackathon project that someone builds about 6 months after discovering public/private keypairs & tcp connections. sorry we tried to build an actual social protocol"
IT'S OPEN WAR! JACK IS SIDING WITH NOSTR, and BLUESKY WITH FEDRATION
Jyn Erso Lives!@GWillow @bensaufley Bluesky is not a socialist commune but a capitalist for-profit company. People seriously expect something "different" from Jack? In this economy? Anyway, I find it funny that centralist leftists think that capitalism will be any kind of refuge instead of DIY, community-supported, bottom-up federation.
Viktor Nagornyy@GWillow @bensaufley the core tenet of socialism is public ownership. Bluesky is private ownership. A large corporation owning data & userbase is not socialism. Wanting a regulated (moderated) social media network is libertarian because that means the market is regulating itself. There's no government involvement. Rugged individualism is also libertarian. So you got confused people on both sides not realizing the main difference between centralized vs decentralized media is who owns your data 🤷♂️
It's Just Jenn 🏳️⚧️@GWillow For me it's less about federation and more about open source. I don't like being beholden to any billionaire who helped cause all the previous issues. Maybe we're framing the conversation wrong? Federation is just a tool for having one less master.
Edit: I also wonder how that "Leftist/socialist" attitude (that I share) will survive at scale?
StephaneWithAnE@GWillow None of the social networks that don't have a wide range of communities will succeed (I mean grow the company making it). The lesson of Twitter is that it failed financially because it wasn't setup for success.
jrm4100% And frankly, I think it's the wrong message.
The correct message is:
"Hey COMPANIES. You see all this dumb Eli-Lilly, blue checkmark BS that Elon caused?
Note how you don't HAVE to deal with this crap when it comes to your own website and email. You just OWN YOUR OWN or pay someone good.
That's what Mastodon/The Fediverse is -- like Twitter, but you can own/run your own thing, or use whichever one YOU want."
Thad@GWillow I feel like "centralized social media site with a userbase in the millions" and "moderators who you can rely on to share your values" are mutually exclusive goals.
I hope people find a site they like, but as somebody who remembers the days of Prodigy, CompuServe, and AOL, and what a relief the open web was by comparison, I feel like centralization *is* the problem and we've repeated a lot of the mistakes of the '90s in going back to that model.
I remember those days fondly as well -- but ultimately I *could not disagree more*
From my POV, Twitter/social media of a few years ago has already done more good than all of those services combined.
I love being an internet nerd, but it took crass public social media to e.g. do what the Rodney King video couldn't.
For me, the natural next step is to make this place the new "Twitter but much better"
@jrm4 I don't deny that Twitter did a lot of good, but it did a lot of harm, too.
Up to and including that time a sitting president used it to organize a coup attempt.
I don't think you can count on a large centralized service to have benevolent leadership. And even if it does now, there's no guarantee it still will in 5 years.
I think "Twitter but better" is a good goal. But I don't think that's possible without community moderation. Which doesn't necessarily mean federation, granted.
@Thad 100% agreement.
What I think is *naive* is an idea I see of "I just like smaller spaces and that's all I care about"
I think it's clear that there will always be a demand for something like Twitter, and this place is the best place to capture that.
Sara Joy 
@GWillow I've seen some interesting very self aware responses from the same people, talking about how they're so used to not being heard, that now they're being listened to (the devs and CEO Jay - not jack - are listening, responding, and working hard), they're sort of getting it out all at once in a big release of pent up frustration.
Paul Frazee is very open with everything the dev team is working on, and often streams working sessions.
It may be inferior to here. But it's interesting.
@sarajw I agree, it's fascinating.
NowWeAreAllTom@GWillow this is a reasonable take but I gotta say it does sting a bit to be told that my attempt to build a fun little community outside of the influence of extremely powerful and very evil corporations is "bootstrappy libertarian". I don't think libertarians have a monopoly on building self-governing communities
Swapna Krishna@GWillow My experience with Bluesky has not been great! I feel like it's Twitter all over again, where dunking is what gets you the most engagement.
Dave 🦔@skrishna
Agree that dunking gets huge engagement, although the high proportion of shitposts there also means there's lots of fun nonsense getting engagement too.
I feel like I've seen people asking not for centralisation but for BS to provide an experience on *their server* which enforces strong anti Nazi and anti Transphobe rules.
@GWillow
DuncanWatson@GWillow Whether or not your final point is true or false, Twitter power-users do not represent the average user by any margin.
@GWillow We're in a phase where a few people/companies are trying to jump into the void Twitter created, but it's generally short-lived. People need to forget about Twitter and decide what suits their needs instead of wanting a replacement (I don't think it's Discord). Past tech shows that copy/paste eventually fails. I think Mastodon has the best potential for a variety of reasons (tl;dr: avoids the failures of the past).
Abandoned America@GWillow Elon basically found a way to distill every terrible aspect of it which is an accomplishment of sorts, I'll give him that
Scott Raymond 
@AbandonedAmerica @GWillow It takes effort to get literally every decision wrong.
耀西 
🌐 ☸️@GWillow It makes me very sad because I spent 14 years in there but hey, everything flows and changes
Puppies&Politics@GWillow I have watched a couple social media platforms collapse over the years, and while others have been fast, and some have been self imposed, Twitter has been a perfect case study of failure.
Jodie Troutman@GWillow The only thing that makes me happy about the current situation is that I've noticed a sharp drop in people I care about actually using it, so I don't have to check in very often.