Brodie RobertsonShout out to RHEL for doing what no other distro has the balls to do and finally mark X org as deprecated
old_tootbrute@BrodieOnLinux alt text: [screenshot from RHEL website saying X.org Server is now deprecated]
Kaito@elias @BrodieOnLinux Gnome still requires X so don't hold your breath.
@elias I'd like alt text features to become more standard
@BrodieOnLinux yeah, for text screenshots i really would love some AI to translate the text.
@elias Pulling text from an image is dead simple especially when talking about clean fonts so it wouldn't be too hard to do
Professor Code@ProfessorCode @BrodieOnLinux nope. i'm on Gotosocial. what client has that?
@elias @BrodieOnLinux It's the web interface for Fosstodon. I guess your instance has probably not enabled this feature.
MithicSpirit@BrodieOnLinux I'd love to switch over to wayland if they had functioning hackable window managers (not Qtile because I have too many gripes with it).
Joshua Lee 
@mithicspirit @BrodieOnLinux dwl, hyprland, river,labwc, sway, ect
@10leej @BrodieOnLinux dwl is the closest of these of being hackable, but it's still lacking compared to offerings on X11.
@mithicspirit @BrodieOnLinux like what?
@10leej @BrodieOnLinux awesomewm, qtile, and xmonad are all more hackable in that they're a lot more convenient to reconfigure imo.
@10leej @BrodieOnLinux the "reconfigure, recompile, and reinstall" worflow in dwm/l are too cumbersome for me personally. They're fine for something like dmenu where I configured it once ages ago and haven't touched since, but I mess around with my window manager config too much for that to be convenient.
Cristian@BrodieOnLinux meanwhile openbsd still considers xorg secure
@cristiioan OpenBSD has Xenocara fixing it's serious problems
@BrodieOnLinux @cristiioan
This is untrue, xenocara still lacks GUI isolation and many basic security features that Wayland includes in the protocol,
https://isopenbsdsecu.re/mitigations/missing_features/
This is untrue, xenocara still lacks GUI isolation and many basic security features that Wayland includes in the protocol,
https://isopenbsdsecu.re/mitigations/missing_features/
sanfierro@BrodieOnLinux Does every X11 relying app work in Wayland in RHEL now?
sarah tonin 
Mateu le grille-pain ricain@BrodieOnLinux The inconsistency of Japanese input kinda annoys me about KDE Wayland
I should check to see what the situation is on Gnome or maybe even try a tiling manager 
cat://Katze 
@BrodieOnLinux I find it a little odd to actually remove something like that. The unixoid sphere has long been one of choice, I can choose my distro, my window manager, my shell, on some systems I can even choose my init (*cough* Gentoo). Every other distro wouldn't want to "have the balls" to restrict the users' choice. RHEL as part of offering full commercial support for everything contained in the base system, understandably, is slimmed down (sometimes too much IMHO). So yeah, AssHat doesn't want to provide X11 support anymore because it's effort. Every other distro should absolutely stick to providing – at least packaging – both. Why would they even remove a package that hasn't changed its build system in ages, and has a reasonable Changelog.… unless they are guaranteeing you to fix every bug you encounter (like RHEL).
This isn't about showing strength or progression. It's just captialism.
@benaryorg Deprecated doesn't mean removed
@BrodieOnLinux I am sorry, but literally the first sentence of the first paragraph in the picture I replied to.… specifies that removal will happen. Just not today.
@benaryorg Exactly the future is not today, there are things that get marked as deprecated and stick around for 5 years
@BrodieOnLinux Deprecation is the first step of removal. This is part of removing it.
When was the last time you saw something being deprecated and not ever being removed?
Sometimes the deprecation gets reverted when it is discovered that it was a mistake, something that will not happen with RHEL because, again, commercial interest.
@benaryorg There will come a time when we all migrate away from X11, it's going to happen
@BrodieOnLinux They said the same about systemd and I'm still running OpenRC. They said the same about systemd and the migration is still ongoing and in some instance is a major pita.
You may dress it up as moving on to better tech, but it still takes away my choice in the process.
You wouldn't deprecate bash and tell everyone to get comfy with zsh either, no, they coexist, because choice is something many people value.
@BrodieOnLinux Or to use an example where I'm on the side of the New Stuff™ but still wouldn't remove the Old Stuff™; I wouldn't want anyone to remove the pulseaudio server. The client libraries aren't going anywhere, but you can replace the server with pipewire, which has immense advantages. I personally switched from ALSA to pipewire directly, skipping pulse entirely, but I still wouldn't remove the server.
@benaryorg There will always be the exceptions but the migration to systemd is basically done, with the exception of gentoo no major distros offer anything other than systemd. And no one is taking away your choice, you're always free to compile the code yourself but when we get too a tiny group of people who still care about X11 why should the distro bother compiling it for you. Bash and zsh are a very different case, zsh is mostly a superset of bash with a couple of inconsistencies but no one is aiming for zsh to become the standard
@benaryorg Let's use a different example, should distros keep supporting mir when it's been mostly abandoned by Canonical. By your logic yes because it's supporting your choice to use it but I'm pretty sure we'd both agree that it's a waste of time. Today that isn't the case for X11 but it is going to happen in the relatively near future, I expect the shift to occur around the time GNOME finally drops X11 support.
@BrodieOnLinux No, let's not use a software as an example that has never spread to any other distro than the one it started and died on within like a year or so? X11 is not limited to a single release of Ubuntu, X11 is spread not just to every distro, it is also running on other Operating Systems (*BSD, UNIX, etc.).
Again, to be perfectly clear: I am not asking for support to be built or extended, I'm asking for the systems that are in place and which work to not be removed.
Mir didn't ever have such a thing. Pulseaudio did and does, the init systems from the other replies did and do, X11 most certainly does and I hope it will continue to have.
no major distros offer anything other than systemd
Yeah, Debian does totally not offer packages for runit, s6, supervisord, and OpenRC.
Irrespective of whether they are being used, they are provided by packages. I'm not asking for first class support, I'm asking for it to not be removed.
Oh, you also seem to gloss over Devuan, but okay.
And yes, Gentoo is a distro that actively works towards enabling choice, having had systemd support since before its widespread adopting and keeping OpenRC support long after systemd adoption.
I wouldn't want it any other way.
Just like debian has packages for a lot of init systems as seen above.
A distribution not offering something, or deprecating something, that is being used and often doesn't have a clear migration path is really bad IMHO. You may disagree, but it does hurt the ecosystem whenever there's only one choice. X11 has been the only choice for a long time and it's been a problem, now you're asking the same for Wayland? I have my doubts.
princess pancake 
@benaryorg @BrodieOnLinux Well I'd argue this would be like if you wanted VGA in a world where everyone could have DisplayPort. Sure, it's an option, but it's very dated and struggling as the mainline choice, let alone in 5 to 10 years
@natty @BrodieOnLinux X11 is not dead though, as VGA is. X11 lives on several other distros and OSes. I remember using XQuartz on macOS (work device, don't ask) to run certain programs that didn't use Cocoa. That isn't going anywhere, same for X11 forwarding on Windows, which you can replace with Xpra or X2Go but with vastly different semantics. Also the BSDs would like to have a word with you about X11 being a current technology.
VGA is not provided by modern graphics cards so it's really something that requires effort to be kept. X11 as a package is a very small effort to be kept as the entire build is and always has been automated, with the only exception being breaking changes which I am perfectly aware may at some point lead to a distro dropping X11 because the user count is too small and the breaking change to hard to accommodate, but that day is not today and a hard breaking change is unlikely to occur upstream either way. X11 is not VGA. X11 is USB 2.0. Everything supports it, people are just asking you to not remove the dedicated lines for it (in favour of having only USB 3 lines) that bother nobody at all, and production of which is already streamlined.
rafal06@benaryorg @natty @BrodieOnLinux And that's why XWayland exists. So you can run X11 applications on Wayland, just like you can plug a USB 2.0 device into a USB 3 port. Keeping X.org would be like keeping USB 2.0 ports alongside (backwards compatible) USB 3 ports.
@rafal06 @natty @BrodieOnLinux Okay so the analogy becomes:
X protocol ⇒ USB 2
Wayland protocol ⇒ USB 3
X.org ⇒ USB 2 port
Wayland ⇒ USB 3 port (Xwayland being the 2 polyfill)
So we have warehouses full of both USB 2 and USB 3 parts (the package repositories) which provide parts for every part of this.
OP as per initial post seems to be in favor of taking the USB 2 parts – which exist already – and dump them.
I say we build new stuff with USB 3 (with USB 2 compat), but keep the USB 2 parts in case someone still needs them, considering that the storage costs of the parts is negligible (both compile time and filesize for x-related packages is kinda small).
If some new products only have a USB 3 plug and you can't use them on USB 2 devices that's fine too (GNOME was mentioned to possibly drop X11 support) as long as no effort is made to remove USB 2 support from existing devices (i.e. dropping X11 support from Qt or GTK) without any good reason to do so.
Just don't brick someone's current device/setup to save on 3 minute package builds and 10MiB of storage per version. That seems excessive considering other packages already use those resources hundredfold in a single package.
A response in a different thread has summed it up rather well; X11 is outdated, changing defaults is good, removing doesn't make sense, except for RHEL.
I'm merely asking to not urge other distros to follow that move because other distros do not have the pressure that RHEL has. RHEL is legally required to either fix any and every bug that breaks customer stuff in any and every package, or to pay compensation. Debian is not.
(btw, this marks the last reply I'll make to any of the threads)
Stanford (@[email protected])
@[email protected] @[email protected] Mh.. okay. I am personally in strong favour of making Wayland the default. But even this depends a bit on the distro. Xorg is just missing some features required for a modern-day desktop. But removing it doesn't make sense right now. There is so much software in the repos right now, much stuff that has a very limited use case. I kinda assume that any actively maintained software has the right to be part of the repo. So, I can't imagine of any reason to remove Xorg just for some sort of Ideological reason actively. But I also don't really see this coming for other distros. But again, for RHEL, this is something which makes sense, as they are required to provide full support for both.
Tsugu@BrodieOnLinux XFCE, Mate, DWM, Any other great DE depending on X:
https://tenor.com/view/goodnight-bye-peace-see-ya-g2g-gif-5181030
https://tenor.com/view/goodnight-bye-peace-see-ya-g2g-gif-5181030
Tenor
RedCyberLizzie 
@BrodieOnLinux if you run an Nvidia GPU, you cant use RHEL cause wayland on nvidia crashes toast notifications and much higher cpu usage compared to xorg. Seems like a bad move imo
deathbybandaid@BrodieOnLinux THIS. This is a milestone.
@BrodieOnLinux
If more people start deprecating xorg, then hopefully those proprietary apps will start caring more about xdg portals, even if their app itself runs in xwayland
If more people start deprecating xorg, then hopefully those proprietary apps will start caring more about xdg portals, even if their app itself runs in xwayland
Yaksh Bariya@BrodieOnLinux I think this is a very bold decision at this point. Wayland is far from stable at the moment. Most things work just fine, but a lot of things need to improve. KDE experience is buggy IMO.
LisPi@BrodieOnLinux The main unfortunate part is that leaves only hacks for running #EXWM and #StumpWM on #RHEL.
@BrodieOnLinux based red hat