André FrainerMay 9, 2023
Thomas A. Frederiksen

I’ve recently learned of a different way of limiting corporate travel, and I think it’s brilliant.

Every company travel policy I’d heard of until yesterday has been a variation on the same theme:

There’s an annual a travel budget. Management may or may not have priority and there may be limitations on who can travel together, but in the end the true limit is the amount of money in the budget.

The policy I learned of yesterday is almost, but not quite, unlike the others. The budget isn’t about money. It’s about CO2 emissions. Each department gets a specific amount of CO2 emissions for travel for the year.

The implications are interesting:

Travel within Europe has become train first as a natural consequence. Intercontinental travel has been reduced by a significant amount.

It’s an absolutely amazing policy and it should be the standard corporate travel policy everywhere.

May 5, 2023 at 8:02amWeb
Show threadStanislav OchotnickýMay 5, 2023
@taf we'll go back to traveling for business with ships (some of them are quite nice so no complaints)
Show threadGabriel PettierMay 6, 2023
@drizzy @taf last time i looked, it seemed that traveling by ship is not necessarily better carbon-wise than plane, sure, it's fine for cargo, especially if it can go slow, but you are not going to travel on a container ship.
Show threadStephan MatthiesenMay 6, 2023
@tshirtman
I'm not sure the ship comparison is so clear. One issue is that many passenger ships nowadays are cruise ships which are essentially luxury hotels with a huge energy footprint. If ships became more common for ordinary travel, then that might change. I don't know there is data specifically on ferries, for example, which are less luxurious and just offer a cabin like a budget hotel.
@drizzy @taf
Show threadGabriel PettierMay 6, 2023
@StephanMatthiesen @drizzy @taf i had looked not at cruise ships, but freight ones, but not sure where i got that comparaison from, looking at things like https://www.cargoshipvoyages.com/# they claim the passenger to be carbon free because the trip will happen anyway, but if there is more demand enough to push more companies to offer such service, that might be different.
Cargo Ship Voyages

Show threadWilfried KlaebeMay 7, 2023
@tshirtman @drizzy @taf especially RORO ferries do often carry passengers, at least some drivers of the trucks they carry.
Show threadmatzipanMay 7, 2023
@tshirtman @drizzy @taf what about sailing ships? 😛
Show threadPeter BrownMay 7, 2023
@drizzy @taf and you could work as you travel
Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 7, 2023
@peterbrown @drizzy With great success - at least if traveling first class. One of my colleagues went from Copenhagen to Amsterdam by train last month. Not only did he make it to the conference and home again fairly well rested and without travel stress, he also managed a solid 8 hours of work each way - in comfort and without the disturbances normally had in our open office environment.
Show threadTim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPEMay 6, 2023

@taf Isn't there also a requirement to demonstrate why the travel is actually necessary and why the meetings can't be done over Zoom?

My wife used to travel lots in the before times, she was away from home several weeks each year. She is now doing the same job perfectly well with no travel (as no guaranteed zero covid travel routes are available).

Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 6, 2023
@TimWardCam That happens automatically when the CO2 budget is low enough. For the company I talked to it certainly seemed to be so (less than 1 ton per employee per year).
Show threadOllie BoermansMay 6, 2023
@TimWardCam @taf Has anyone done the email vs zoom call CO2 analysis?
Show threadTim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPEMay 7, 2023
@ollicle @taf Not that I'm aware of. Zoom will cost more than email ... but less than flying/driving to a meeting.
Show threadDavid Short 🇪🇺 🇵🇸 🏳️‍🌈May 6, 2023
@taf interesting. Do you have a reference or can you say who the company is?
Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 6, 2023
@dwasmkuk I’m not entirely certain I can. I’ll be asking next time I’m in a meeting with them. I expect they won’t mind, but I’d rather ask first.
Show threadDavid Short 🇪🇺 🇵🇸 🏳️‍🌈May 6, 2023
@taf yes please. Quite understandable to ask first.
Show threadJake in the desertMay 6, 2023
@taf this is SO cool. The USA is blowing it on this front. Just blowing it. I wish we had great public transportation everywhere. Right now, it's just some of the main cities and that is really it
Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 6, 2023
@jake4480 There’s a very good reason I’ve heard this from a corporation based in Europe. The infrastructure needs to be there.
Show threadJake in the desertMay 6, 2023
@taf true. And I discovered recently that the corporate ownership of freight lines here prevents any kind of useful commuter infrastructure.
Show threadDrArtAnalyticsMay 6, 2023
@taf
Excellent idea. Train can cost a fair bit more and takes more time. Carbon and stress savings!
@JorgeStolfi
Show threadStephen CerrutiMay 6, 2023
@taf This might be an interesting topic to look at for planning family vacations.
Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 6, 2023
@scerruti It is! Our next family vacation abroad will be by rail. @seatsixtyone has recently posted figures that indicate that it may well be cheaper for a family of four to go by night train than by plane.
Show threadColm Ó DonnchadhaMay 6, 2023
@taf @scerruti @seatsixtyone one issue with train ticketing for family holidays is the short booking window
You can book a flight in August over Xmas holidays bit have to wait til June for some trains(so don't know price for budgeting)
Show threadBob HarveyMay 7, 2023

@scerruti @taf

I have been doing this for about a decade.

It favours the old-fashioned seaside holiday. Arrive by train, walk to the B&B, spend days on the beach or cliff walking, evenings in some tatty theatre, or a pub with live rock music.

If it rains, play board games or read books

You have no idea how good a holiday that can be.

Show threadArgot_RobbieMay 6, 2023
@taf Next: Reform academe so that advancement has nothing to do with physical conference attendance.
Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 6, 2023
@hydrocabron That would be an excellent idea as well.
Show threadCelloMom On CarsMay 6, 2023

@taf

Interesting:
"The budget isn’t about money. It’s about CO2 emissions. "

Once a company is determined to do it, it can cut its travel emissions fast.

This is what entire nations are supposed to be doing under the #ParisAgreement, by the way.

Show threadEcosaurian 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 May 6, 2023

@taf

My institution is aiming for year-on-year reductions in travel, and all travel must be booked on central system linked to an analytics tool so we can see at department, grade and post who's doing the damage.

Remains to be seen if it will change anything if a senior manager wants to fly...

I like the idea of a CO2 budget though, it makes it directly measurable and everyone knows the impact of each decision for department.

Show threadCurlyParakeet 🇪🇺🏳️‍🌈🇺🇦May 6, 2023

@taf

It would be interesting if that got written into grants too. Quite often you see something about face-to-face meetings happening, but how about if there was a carbon cap on those meetings? (I mean I personally don’t see the necessity for face-to-face meetings, but hey! 🤷‍♀️)

Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)May 6, 2023

@taf another factor would be electric travel. That *could* be green by grid greening. So an EV car should count less than a ICE car.

Euro trains are another good example, they are electric/grid powered so aren't 'green' yet but get greener as the grid does.

Show threadRaphael (he/him)May 6, 2023
@taf that might also fix the perverse incentives from personal vehicle policies, which encourage driving rather than taking public transit.
Show threadBartoszMay 6, 2023
@taf what if each person in the world got their CO2 limit to spend, same regardless of wealth and heritage. You could trade unused emissions at the end of the year, or buy from others.
No quotas given to corporations. They either need to be zero or buy from ppl.
Show threadwoolieMay 6, 2023
@taf free travel is the only good reason to work for a large company or institution.
Show threadJeremy KahnMay 6, 2023

@taf i live in Seattle and half my team is in San Francisco Bay area.

I would be happy to visit them more often if i could take the train. The carbon footprint is much smaller and travel is much comfier.

Biggest downside is that the trip is much longer, but i already work from decent Wi-Fi, so this would be like a mini retreat in both directions

Show threadraboofMay 7, 2023
@trochee @taf this might be a naive question, but why can't you?
Show threadJeremy KahnMay 7, 2023

@raboof @taf mostly it's that the co and its travel agency thinks I would prefer flying, and nobody else there imagines how this could be better.

Also, train travel SEA->SFO is 23 hours which is a national embarrassment -- should be half that

Show threadraboofMay 7, 2023

@trochee interesting. I've been in orgs that could arrange travel but mostly did so myself - sad to hear that's not always allowed.

Memorable experience with leaving travel arr. to them was the time they first tried to put me in the most expensive Hilton in London, far from the venue. When I told them that didn't make sense they put me in some other $$$ place and I was like 🤷. Glad I had that documented, as I was later scolded by my manager about the accomodation costs 🤦

Show threadJeremy KahnMay 7, 2023
@raboof mostly, American train system is so broken that there are basically no business travelers who take the train (outside of a small east coast corridor)
Show threadraboofMay 7, 2023
@trochee tbh it really depends on departure/destination location whether it makes sense even in Europe, but when it does I much prefer it!
Show threadJames DevineMay 6, 2023
@taf Awesome, thanks for sharing. I'm going to suggest this at work on Monday!
Show threadCHBMay 6, 2023
@taf Oh I am absolutely going to advocate this to my company!!
Show threadOllie BoermansMay 7, 2023
@taf This is great! I hope the shitty carbon offset loop hole is closed too.
Show threadMagess May 7, 2023
@taf so does the money cost not come into it at all? Like, I could travel by train, but it would cost more than by plane by several times.
Show threadAlisonWMay 7, 2023
@taf
As someone who used to do a lot of international travelling on business (I was global project manager for a Fortune 500) I used eurostar when possible but usually had to fly because of the time land-based alternatives took if I wasn't to spend days every week just travelling.
Yes, I used conference calls too, but in person is required for practical purposes (I didn't just have meetings). High-speed trains have improved since then but wouldn't have helped much.
Show threadRyan RampersadMay 7, 2023
@taf I think about this sort of policy relative to local office attendance pretty frequently too. I can visit but I want you (biz) to acknowledge the emissions as a cost too.
Show threadGotanda 🏞️ 🗼May 7, 2023
@taf
Similar discussions going on re academic travel. This makes a lot of sense within Europe. Globally, it concentrates already very lopsided power dynamic even further away from global south. Conference and research travel from say Southeast Asia to US or Europe becomes impossible. Needs some social / global offset as well.
Show threadBarbChamberlainMay 7, 2023
@taf Oh, would love to have this for driving to local meetings that are within a walk/bike distance or accessible via transit! I'm taking this idea to work.
Show threadMartin HoffmannMay 7, 2023
@taf Does that include regular commuting? Because that would make it even more interesting.
Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 7, 2023
@partim it does not. Corporate travel only.
Show threadKate BowlesMay 7, 2023

@taf @troberts I’ve been lobbying for this for a while. Because of where we are (Australia) to get anywhere else means flying. If we can’t take the train, we have to reduce travel and when we do get on a plane, we should try to do more than one thing. Flying across the world to present to nine people in the breakfast slot in a mega conference? Flying to a meeting that could be done by other means? Nope, or only if bundled with other useful things. It’s about thinking far more carefully about what justifies the carbon budget.

For academia, this means institutions need to stop awarding career points for bad habits.

Show threadAndrew MillarMay 11, 2023
@kate @taf @troberts Especially if you are in universities, this Young Academy of Scotland pledge has some thoughtful points on travel in a short document. ➡️ https://www.youngacademyofscotland.org.uk/our-work/sustainable/yas-sustainable-business-travel-pledge/
YAS Sustainable Business Travel Pledge - Young Academy of Scotland

Young Academy of Scotland
Show threadCiaraMay 7, 2023
@taf That's brilliant, and brilliantly simple. A strategy we can record in the 'there's hope for us yet' section of our #ClimateDiary
Show threadPauline von HellermannMay 7, 2023
@CiaraNi @taf
Yes! That is indeed a brilliant travel policy. One that i will suggest to my own institution!
Show threadPatrick O'BeirneMay 7, 2023
@taf
This is a great long thread. Those of us living on an island have no such choice of Chunnel or fast mainland trains. I'm planning a one day trip to London in July and a flight would cost €75 return .
Sail & rail €100 requires a 02:40 return in a 1 bed cabin arriving at 6am sleep deprived. No.
Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 7, 2023

@PatrickOBeirne There’s a lot of limitations to the practicality of this sort of policy outside of mainland Europe. I’ve got a potential conference lined up in Dublin later this year, and no matter how much I’d prefer not flying it’ll be on a plane either way.

The main point remains, though. You can still have the benefits of this approach on an island - but your allowed emissions will have to take geography into account.

Show threadAndreas NuytsMay 7, 2023
@taf This is not "brilliant" in the sense that it requires a genius to think of it, of course. It's just putting societal needs over the company's short-term interest.
Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 7, 2023
@anuytstt It's brilliant in the sense that a corporation in the 50.000+ employee range has actually implemented it. It's all well and good that small idealist companies do so, but it really starts to make a difference when (what used to be) major business flyers switch to trains.
Show threadJohn Bell 🇺🇦🇪🇺🔸🕷️🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿May 7, 2023
@taf in my company, rail travel is encouraged over car travel for safety reasons
Show threadBadExampleMan 🟣May 7, 2023
@taf I can see Corporate including breathing in the CO2 emissions limit. "I'm sorry, Johann, there just weren't enough house plants in the office to offset everyone, now please hold still while I position this pillow."
Show threadThomas A. FrederiksenMay 7, 2023
@BadExampleMan That would be very on brand for some strains of US HR.
Show threadAndrewMay 7, 2023
@taf this is a really interesting approach, but sadly given the shocking state of passenger trains in New Zealand, it just isn't feasible here. :(