Mastodawn

Corey May 8, 2023

The funniest/saddest thing about tech bosses fighting unions so hard is that many of the very same things they complain non-stop about their employees would vanish with a healthy and strong union.

Worries about employees hopping from company to company? Offer them a pension and unions have perks and promotions based on seniority, people won't be leaving.

Struggling with DEI initiatives? Giving the Union rep a seat at the table means that you'll be rid of toxic managers and keep your most valuable diverse employees.

Struggling with recruiting talent? A clear union contract showing what the company will give in exchange for what expectations, you'll have a whole class of people who want stability over chasing the highest paycheck beating a path to your doorstep.

Activist shareholders bullying you about needing to do layoffs even when you know it's not going to actually benefit the company? Tell the investors "Sorry, but we can't do layoffs without risking Labor action." The Activist investors will go away and you'll get more investors who want to hold for the long haul.

Worried about hostile takeovers? Not with a union. Vulture capital will leave your business far alone - Unions are their kryptonite.

@JessTheUnstill so basically what every company in Germany has to do as soon as they get double-digit employees...

Also #Healthcare and #SocialSecurity ain't #perks but must-provide here...

Alon May 8, 2023

@kkarhan @JessTheUnstill Germany doesn't really have a US-style seniority system, though. For example, here, train drivers are scheduled based on a central system that spreads the painful shifts equally among drivers; in the US, they pick their schedules in seniority order and so for the first 10 years workers are stuck with the shifts nobody else wants.

(The one place I know where office work is organized by seniority, Japan, is infamously inefficient and has brutal working hours to boot.)

@Alon @JessTheUnstill then again, Germans emphasize punctuality and will fulfill their contracts to the letter and prioritize good working conditions and teamwork where beneficial for everyone.

Alon May 8, 2023

@kkarhan @JessTheUnstill Yeah, to be clear, I think Northern European unions are really good, I'm only pushing back against the line about a seniority system. (Another big difference with the US: unions here are fiercely anti-racist and anti-nativist; a Swedish union report about exploitation of EU migrant construction workers went to great lengths to reject migration restrictions and find models in which such migrants do unionize, citing a positive example from Norway.)

@Alon @JessTheUnstill also #UNions in the #EU aren't borderline #Racketeering schemes as in the #USA but actually beneficial for everyone - including non-members!

Alon May 8, 2023

@kkarhan @JessTheUnstill Yeah, sectoral collective bargaining is really good and has positive economic effects in general. Ditto the codetermination system (cf. the American public sector system of informal veto points, which protects both the worst workers and the worst anti-worker management). The Nordic model is nice and I'm sad that right-wing coalitions are dismantling it as we speak just because its low inequality gives elites lower incomes than in the US and UK.

@Alon @JessTheUnstill Also it's kinda part of #Ordoliberalism, where in general things are laissez-faire but the basic frameworks like healthcare, social security, minimum wage, etc. are set and where employers compete for employees...

Roger Crew✅❌☑🗸❎✖✓✔May 8, 2023

@Alon @kkarhan @JessTheUnstill

"anti-racist and anti-nativist"
reads like an impossible combination to me,

but then I realized that "anti-nativist" means something different in Europe than in the US.

Alon May 9, 2023

@wrog @kkarhan @JessTheUnstill Even in the US, nativism means anti-immigration attitudes, not support for the rights of Native Americans.

Roger Crew✅❌☑🗸❎✖✓✔May 9, 2023

@Alon @kkarhan @JessTheUnstill

I don't think the word gets used that way here. People would find it confusing. (I'll note this is the first I've encountered it, i.e., "nativist" in the sense of white supremacist)

Alon May 9, 2023

@wrog @kkarhan @JessTheUnstill Huh. I've seen the term used in American history a bunch (e.g. Wikipedia provides a quote by Tyler Anbinder), but maybe it hasn't hopped to popular consciousness in a while and sounds old-fashioned?

Roger Crew✅❌☑🗸❎✖✓✔May 9, 2023

@Alon @kkarhan @JessTheUnstill

maybe in academic circles?
(I'm not actually a historian nor do I play one on TV; surprise...)

Roger Crew✅❌☑🗸❎✖✓✔May 9, 2023

@Alon @kkarhan @JessTheUnstill

when I hear "nativist", I think of the fake stuff we used to do in Boy Scouts (back in the day, Order of the Arrow was really fond of appropriating Native American rituals for its various ceremonies; at some point in the last few decades they were finally told to cut it out...)

scunneen (he/him) 🚋May 9, 2023

@wrog @Alon @kkarhan @JessTheUnstill The word was used more like that historically, to the point that a 19th century political party opposed to Catholic immigration was officially known as the "Native American Party." Members of the party were required to say "I know nothing" when asked about the workings of the party, leading it to quickly be nicknamed the Know-Nothing Party.

@scunneen @wrog @Alon @JessTheUnstill I'll checkout here m8s.

Thanks...

ACM SIGCAS Computers&Society May 7, 2023

@JessTheUnstill Nice clear message. Thank you!

kira :3 May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill speaking from the outside (for now?) it would definitely help my mental health if hiring/the industry was a little more stable lmao

Bynkii May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill @BlackAzizAnansi literally the best way to increase retention: give me something different and somewhat unique as a reward for staying at your company.

Every company of any size has some form of 401(k), that’s not keeping me.

Shit, I don’t even get the fucking watch any more.

Give me an actual reason to stay. Like IBM back in the day.

eribosot May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill I work for a software company based out of the Netherlands. It did so well that it set up a branch office in Silicon Valley. One of our Dutch guys was sent there to set up the office and start hiring people. In a talk with me, he explained that the hardest thing was convincing new employees that our company aimed to keep people long-term, to the point of giving them a nice raise the longer they stayed. He hired a bunch of people… who all left after a year or so.

cat anthropologist 🏳️‍⚧️May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill literally it’s workers funding a substantial amount of HR functions.

esp in big tech where there is such rigid leveling?! just put it in writing!

Ursidinoj/The Bjornsdottirs May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill They don't care about all of those things though. They just care about money. A hostile takeover means a payout.

Bella Ciao appreciator May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill the bad thing about unions is they’re usually mediators between capital and labor, rather than units of struggle against capital itself.

Tursiae May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill Therein that last paragraph lies the problem: too many Big Tech execs aspire to making 8 digits and retiring to Menlo Park to become vulture capitalists themselves, so they wouldn't dare rock the yacht.

Wayne Werner May 8, 2023

@tursiae @JessTheUnstill is it any wonder so many of us aspire to just end out on a farm somewhere?

MrShoggoth May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill - Employers believe they can get all that stuff through the sheer greatness of their brains and their amazing charisma. It’s very hilarious.

Natalie May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill The answer is that they don't really care about these things. They're just using them as excuses.

Fluz May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill as a tech worker and general supporter of unions, I agree with the premise that a tech union in general would be good for many reasons, but not the ones you list. Promotions based in seniority wouldn't be a policy I'd work under.

Pusher Of Pixels (old account)May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill it involves some interesting reeducation of the younger white male workforce.

Having been one of those ppl, it's a tough sell to take less money for more benefits that are usually decades away from being very useful.

As an older worker, who makes use of good benefits more frequently, the trade off of some pay for good benefits is quite a tangibly *good* deal.

I'm sure I have some white male privilege blinders involved here, just what I see as some likely friction for companies to implementation

Sean May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill
"Struggling with recruiting talent? A clear union contract showing what the company will give in exchange for what expectations, you'll have a whole class of people who want stability over chasing the highest paycheck beating a path to your doorstep."

Employers don't want to have their empty promises kneecapped by a ironclad contract, if they did, they write ironclad and upfront employment contracts would restrain the company with what it could do.

Peter Butler May 8, 2023

@JessTheUnstill You’re absolutely right, but "the very same things they complain non-stop about their employees” are not really what they care about most

The care most about paying employees as little as possible