stux⚡️20 years of pickup truck design progress in one photo
Oh yeah…
Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦@stux Pickup trucks are great vehicles... for doing what they were actually designed to do (haul cargo, tools, etc for work, drive on rough terrain, etc).
Buying them as urban cruisers is beyond ridiculous. I mean, do these people hate having good visibility and love having difficulty parking?
Marten
CJ PalomaI -still- own a 2003 ranger precisely because I can easily hop up into the (large) bed. I've used that bed literally hundreds of times to haul wood, wood chips, autumn leaves, sofas, bikes, kayaks (yes plural) and yucky recycling. It will can hold a full size piece of plywood flat in the bed. Try doing that with virtually any of the newer pickups, including the new rangers.
@CJPaloma @marten @stux Exactly. If you *actually*, *frequently* use it for work, pickups excel at their role.
Note that in Europe we have another option (not sure why it never took off in the US), which is small trailers. People tow them even with passenger cars. Own one or rent it as needed, leave it behind when you don't need it.
The choice between a pickup and a trailer is *where*. If you'll be driving on roads, choose a trailer. If you'll be driving on dirt, a pickup.
@CJPaloma @marten @stux (And indeed, you can use a pickup *and* a trailer at once to greatly increase your capacity, and indeed, they can haul larger trailers)
Trailers do take some getting used to - a pickup is easier to maneuver - but trailers definitely get the job done, and leave you with the convenience and efficiency of having a smaller vehicle when you leave it behind.
@CJPaloma @marten @stux This sort of thing is common here.
But so are pickups. Because people need to drive on bad ground as well.
What's rare is "urban cruisers", people buying pickups as style statements and then just only driving them around town. That's just... weird.
My theory is trucks grew larger (and stupider) to to mimic American style machismo. Dodge sells their Ram Tough trucks, Nissan sells a huge SUV called an Armada.. there's even a travel trailer called "Predator". Because in America life is all about proving how macho you are. It's ridiculous.
@CJPaloma @nafnlaus @stux @notjustbikes did a video on this, not machismo but emissions rules apparently: https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo
These Stupid Trucks are Literally Killing Us
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Pusher Of Pixels (old account)@marten @CJPaloma @nafnlaus @stux @notjustbikes both things can be true.
But yeah the unintended consequences of saying larger doesn't have to be as efficient..... hey here's 8000 lb grocery hauler
AndyH
Darwin Woodka
TransitBiker@TransitBiker @nafnlaus @marten @stux
Well, in my experience pretty much all regressive legislation serves more than one singular purpose: usually both ideology and money.
The same is true of benefits: bikes have more than one benefit and people push for more bike friendly communities for more than one reason. Carry on and do good.
Geeden_Of_Arden@Bon_Jardin yeah, all kinds of those articles float around...but the reality is correlation vs causation are really tricky things to isolate when talking about human behavior. I mean how do you know it's not due directly to some of the literally millions of bits of cultural "stuff" we all have to negotiate for entire lifetimes?
Do men take more uh...unwise risks because of testosterone or because cultural stuff like Terminator movies (and other dudes) encourage them to be hypermasculine?
an excellent (general) counter point to the idea that "It's the testosterone" can be found in a book called Testosterone Rex by Cordelia Fine. she's funny, too.
@CJPaloma I don't mean to suggest the mere presence of testosterone is enough to create this environment. I read a study some months ago that saw a connection between testosterone and greed, but certainly not in all cases. As you say, the environment is highly significant.
Allow me to share a small insight I've gleaned from Laozi, regarding Chapter 61, along with the text itself, in images. ymmv
Allow me to share a small insight I've gleaned from Laozi, regarding Chapter 61, along with the text itself, in images. ymmv
sleepfreeparent
Prof. Julia Leyda@CJPaloma @nafnlaus @marten @stux Yes, see the concept of #petromasculinity! Originally from an academic essay by Cara Daggett, now entering public discourse. That photo of the two trucks is brilliant!
https://newrepublic.com/article/166048/fox-news-petromasculinity-fossil-fuels
https://newrepublic.com/article/166048/fox-news-petromasculinity-fossil-fuels
Richard@richard_merren @nafnlaus @CJPaloma @marten @stux
Drivers of these spend upwards of $125.00+ to fill the gas tank.
@AndyHarrison @nafnlaus @CJPaloma @marten @stux yes...it's nuts. Some gas stations cut off the pump at $100 and they have to do two separate transactions to fill up.
@richard_merren @nafnlaus @CJPaloma @marten @stux
The cost of Ford's F150 gas and electric are about the same, but the cost difference to fill the tank and electric to charge is enormous. There is currently a year wait for the electric. I love how people scream about how much more EVs are, when in reality there isn't much difference. One comment was "What happens if I'm stuck in traffic and run out of power" - EVs shut off when stopped.
@richard_merren @nafnlaus @CJPaloma @marten @stux and you're more likely to run out of gas than battery power.
@richard_merren @CJPaloma @marten @stux Trailers "exist" in the US, but they're not even remotely used as widespread as they are in Europe. It's weird.
bhtooefr@nafnlaus @richard_merren @CJPaloma @marten @stux Part of the problem is differences in safe towing practices, and more prevalence of automatic transmissions and longer warranties in the US.
European towing practices tend to put 4-7% of the trailer weight on the hitch, which puts very little load on the rear suspension relative to the trailer's weight. A lot of cars have a 75-80 kg (165-176 lb) towbar load rating, and even at a conservative for Europe 7% on a 75 kg rating, that's about 1071 kg (2362 lb) of trailer that can be towed. (And European tow ratings often aren't conservative.)
American towing practices put 10-15% on the hitch, which is *much* more stable at speed (and there's an expectation in many areas of going 65-80 MPH (105-129 km/h) highway speed when towing, instead of the 80-90 km/h (50-56 MPH) that most European countries limit towing to)... but means that that same 75 kg towbar load rating translates to, at a conservative 15%, 500 kg (1102 lb) of trailer that can be towed. The automakers that *do* allow towing then often round that down to 1000 lbs (454 kg).
Then, automatic transmissions tend to be stressed a lot more by towing (both due to the added sustained torque, as well as more frequent shifting), and the automatics in cars aren't built for that duty cycle. Combine that with longer warranties in many cases, and automakers have incentives to simply not allow towing at risk of voiding the warranty. (And, then, you've got the standards that automakers in the US market use for setting tow ratings on trucks nowadays, which is basically a torture test that almost nobody will encounter in real life: https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1502-sae-j2807-tow-tests-the-standard/ )
Although, in the US, towing with a vehicle not rated for it, or above the rating, isn't *illegal* like it can be in many European countries, it's just likely to void your warranty, and if you lose control and cause a crash and are determined to be at fault, you can be held personally civilly liable for the damages.
European towing practices tend to put 4-7% of the trailer weight on the hitch, which puts very little load on the rear suspension relative to the trailer's weight. A lot of cars have a 75-80 kg (165-176 lb) towbar load rating, and even at a conservative for Europe 7% on a 75 kg rating, that's about 1071 kg (2362 lb) of trailer that can be towed. (And European tow ratings often aren't conservative.)
American towing practices put 10-15% on the hitch, which is *much* more stable at speed (and there's an expectation in many areas of going 65-80 MPH (105-129 km/h) highway speed when towing, instead of the 80-90 km/h (50-56 MPH) that most European countries limit towing to)... but means that that same 75 kg towbar load rating translates to, at a conservative 15%, 500 kg (1102 lb) of trailer that can be towed. The automakers that *do* allow towing then often round that down to 1000 lbs (454 kg).
Then, automatic transmissions tend to be stressed a lot more by towing (both due to the added sustained torque, as well as more frequent shifting), and the automatics in cars aren't built for that duty cycle. Combine that with longer warranties in many cases, and automakers have incentives to simply not allow towing at risk of voiding the warranty. (And, then, you've got the standards that automakers in the US market use for setting tow ratings on trucks nowadays, which is basically a torture test that almost nobody will encounter in real life: https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1502-sae-j2807-tow-tests-the-standard/ )
Although, in the US, towing with a vehicle not rated for it, or above the rating, isn't *illegal* like it can be in many European countries, it's just likely to void your warranty, and if you lose control and cause a crash and are determined to be at fault, you can be held personally civilly liable for the damages.
@nafnlaus @CJPaloma @marten @stux They were more common in the past, when cars were bigger and heavier. You used to be able to connect a hitch to a chrome bumper and just about any car could be rigged to tow. I had to go to a shop to have the hitch added to my car.
You do see lots of trailers here, but ironically they are mostly pulled behind trucks and big SUVs.
@nafnlaus @CJPaloma @marten @stux What we really need are electric, self-powered trailers that can be towed behind smaller cars without requiring too much power and with safety features like balance and braking and regulating sway. Smart trailers that know how to follow your car, and even help you back up correctly.
And since this is the US, they should also have cup holders built in.
@richard_merren @CJPaloma @marten @stux Interestingly enough, #Tesla has its origins in a tiny outfit called AC Propulsion (they get too little credit in the story!), and in addition to the tzero (the car that inspired the Roadster), one of ACP's main inventions was the "Long Ranger" self-steering genset trailer :) Because back when there was no charging infrastructure, they decided, hey, let's make it REALLY easy to drive with a trailer with a power source. :)
Thierna@richard_merren @Pineywoozle @nafnlaus @CJPaloma @marten @stux please built those trailers and make them able to follow me on foot or on my bicycle.
I have been asking people to built those for a long time. But so many people in the autonomous vehicle industry can only think of cars.
Louis Botelho
mjfgates
ThisIsLeeloo
Nick 'The Viking'@nafnlaus @CJPaloma @marten @stux
Trailers are fairly common here, but most times towed by... pickup trucks. Most trailers here are larger than what is prudent to tow with a passenger car. Most folks tow larger than what is prudent FWIW.
Average driving skill is not so spectacular so less complicated is better.
British Tech Guru
QCATOPR 
Ton Chrysoprase@nafnlaus @stux Pickups weren't designed to do any of these things and they aren't good for any of them, except very narrow applications of hauling dirty bulk cargo on rough terrain for longer distances. A van is vastly superior for anything outside of farming use and a tractor beats a pickup truck for that, except for longer distances. They where a very niche vehicle before they became a way to avoid emissions standards.
@TonChryso @stux Um, yes, they were, and yes, they are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_truck#History
Vans do not typically have the suspension needed for work in the countryside or at construction sites, only quite large vans are long enough for lumber, and you can't haul oversized loads in one or vertically load them
Vans are designed for moving goods on roads to and from stores, factories, etc.
Trust me, I used to own a pickup truck, used for *actual* countryside work. They're needed, & vans do NOT substitute
@TonChryso @stux Try donig this with a van (this was my truck, when I was developing a research garden). Don't forget to include driving said van across undeveloped terrain to the destination.
@TonChryso @stux Try this with a van (was hauling parts for my water system for my house)
@TonChryso @stux A Unimog is expensive overkill for most people, poor maneuverability, less fuel efficient, lower speed, difficult to park, etc. A tractor doesn't have a bed and can't drive at speed on a highway for hauling goods between destinations.
Your "solutions" are nonsense. Which is why businesses buy primarily pickups for work in construction, industry, and in the countryside. Unimogs have a role and do that role well, but it's a *minority* role. Vans have a large, VERY different role.
@nafnlaus @stux Dude.., as I was saying, there are very niche uses for pickups that are pretty much identical to that of Unimogs and you can rent either for those applications, or buy one if you really need them a lot. It's just not something that applies for a lot of people. If you need to do farm work, a tractor with a trailer is a better solution, if you work on a construction site, get a van platform with a bed. If you really want a pickup, get a pickup.
@TonChryso @stux So people should just gladly choose to pay more, have worse maneuverability, worse fuel efficiency, lower speed, more difficulty parking, and get a truck driver's license, so they can drive a Unimog instead of a pickup in order to make Ton Chrysoprase happy?
Well, this conversation has reached its absurd conclusion.
@nafnlaus @stux Well, except for the drivers license, people are doing all of these things already with a pickup truck, so I'm not sure what your point is. I never said anybody should get a Unimog, quite the contrary. But since you seem to care about cargo space and getting through rough terrain, they seem to be the superior option for both.
@TonChryso @stux Try driving over this in a van.
I'm not sure how many different ways I could possibly point out how absurd your notion of "vans substitute for pickups" is. It's practically endless.
They're *entirely* different roles.
@nafnlaus @stux Again, see below. There's a bit of a language issue translating a non-US concept of light trucks to pickups. Pretty much every major market has van-based platforms or dedicated light truck platforms that aren't a car substitute with better cargo space and more flexible beds, etc. for use on construction sites.
@nafnlaus @TonChryso @stux there's a lot of overlap, though, where pickups are chosen in North America for cultural reasons instead of practical reasons
even a lot of construction sites don't look like *that*, and a European van with the optional AWD system is more than enough for a lot of construction sites, the long suspension travel and large tires of a modern American full-size pickup are unnecessary
also, while dirty and extremely tall loads are easier to handle in a pickup, basically every other kind of load works better in a van - full-size vans tend to have longer cargo areas than any American pickup, lower load floors, and significantly improved load security/weather protection. (yes, you can get a cap or tonneau cover for a truck, but those are still less secure than van cargo areas, and provide less space.)
...and then, there's always the dropside pickup beds available on European and Japanese van platforms, which have *more* load versatility than an American pickup, while using less road space and having significantly better outward visibility.
even a lot of construction sites don't look like *that*, and a European van with the optional AWD system is more than enough for a lot of construction sites, the long suspension travel and large tires of a modern American full-size pickup are unnecessary
also, while dirty and extremely tall loads are easier to handle in a pickup, basically every other kind of load works better in a van - full-size vans tend to have longer cargo areas than any American pickup, lower load floors, and significantly improved load security/weather protection. (yes, you can get a cap or tonneau cover for a truck, but those are still less secure than van cargo areas, and provide less space.)
...and then, there's always the dropside pickup beds available on European and Japanese van platforms, which have *more* load versatility than an American pickup, while using less road space and having significantly better outward visibility.
Kristoffer Lawson@nafnlaus @TonChryso @stux in most European countries vans are the number one vehicle even for construction and trade. Even on slightly rough terrain. Tools and equipment can be kept enclosed. On a quick road count, vans outnumber pickups here in Finland 30-1. Even in construction the need for higher ground clearance is relatively rare (unlike in Iceland where, yes, you need to cross rivers). Pickups have their uses, but as was pointed out, it’s niche.
@nafnlaus @TonChryso @stux even for jobs in rough terrain, you still see utility 4x4s in use. Unfortunately they are becoming very rare (perhaps due to regulation). Old Defenders and the like. Would like to see more of those vehicles as for many things they are more practical than pickups.
@Setok @TonChryso @stux We may be somewhat of an exception in Europe because... well, we're roughly tied with Australia for #3 / #4 least densely populated countries on Earth ;)
But even still, we have no semblance of the US's "trucks just for driving around the city, as a style statement" culture that the US has. Trucks exist here to do truck things.
@nafnlaus @TonChryso @stux if I lived in Iceland (would love to btw), I would totally have a proper 4x4 for driving on mountain roads. But yeah, even there a pick-up for personal use wouldn’t be very practical. Just a pity there are absolute no utility EVs in Europe and only pickups vaguely on the horizon.
@nafnlaus @stux Not sure why you linked the Wikipedia article, but it doesn't really support anything you say. Pickups have miniscule cargo space and van platform with a bed or actual light trucks are vastly superior.
@TonChryso @stux Pickups *are* light trucks. That's literally what they are.
And if you can't read, that's your problem.
Pickups are not used at construction sites and in the countryside because businesses are run by morons. They're used because they're the best, most affordable solution for the job. And I have *personal* experience with this.
@TonChryso @stux You're talking to someone from Iceland.
Ryk ✌🏻🖖🏽🇨🇦