Bill Kalpak
David HoTBH, this seems worse than having the road blocked by climate activists for a few minutes.
T. Austin Brown@davidho arrest the water for woke traffic blocking or whatever.
Jargoggles@jargoggles @davidho look, I know this is a joke but…
gavinisdie 
@jargoggles @AustinB @davidho they must suck at video games then because they shoot thier TVs when faced with a challenge
Björn 🌸 Starkimarm
elliot 🇩🇪 🇪🇺 🇬🇧 🏳️🌈
Patrick
Dr Grace Peng@davidho My Boulder condo is in the 200 yr flood plain. I told my neighbors that my flood plan is to move my car to the top story of a nearby mall's parking garage and my bike upstairs to my condo. They hadn't made flood plans
Kevin Russell
Amaya 🌹
Extinction (our fate)@davidho Yeah those cars are probably going to be unsellable or unusable even for parts in short order. Think of the resources and monetary value locked into those useless hunks of metal. All our useless hunks of metal.
Jacquelyn Gill@davidho I think that's a false dichotomy. I think we can make better activist choices that target bad actors with clear messages. Blocking ambulances and people trying to do school pickups or get to parole meetings or come home after working shit jobs where they're dehumanized all day doesn't build solidarity. Especially with helicopters for the rich.
PatrickMeyfroidt@JacquelynGill @davidho
I agree with the point that targeting the weak actors is a bad strategy but i didn't read the message as a false dichotomy. I read it as something like "to those regular people who are blocked by climate activists, realize that these activists may be sometimes misguided in their actions, but they are doing that, however inadequately, because they want to avoid great harm". Should be a message that actually goals are aligned.
I agree with the point that targeting the weak actors is a bad strategy but i didn't read the message as a false dichotomy. I read it as something like "to those regular people who are blocked by climate activists, realize that these activists may be sometimes misguided in their actions, but they are doing that, however inadequately, because they want to avoid great harm". Should be a message that actually goals are aligned.
LN 
@pmeyfroidt @JacquelynGill @davidho At this point it's either blocking roads or doing a terrorism. Activists have tried literally everything else. The reason you haven't heard of them doing whatever you think would be less inconvenient to the general public is that nobody cared when they did it.
Dmitry Tantsur@alan @pmeyfroidt @JacquelynGill @davidho so when this approach also does not work (and why would it), will terrorism become acceptable?
The problem is by no means that people don't know about the climate crisis or the protests (FFF anyone?). The problem is that they don't care enough to vote for politicians that care enough. Alienating them further brings the risk of even more short-sighted decisions.
@creepy_owlet @pmeyfroidt @JacquelynGill @davidho If every peaceful option is exhausted and has either proven ineffective or been met with excessive violence, what do you propose? Doing what you already know not to work? Laying down to die? I'm not saying I want political violence. I'm saying eventually political violence will be the only option left on the table. In Germany the media has already taken to referring to nonviolent activists as "climate terrorists" and public opinion is being shaped towards criminalizing all protest.
@creepy_owlet @pmeyfroidt @JacquelynGill @davidho If you have an idea that hasn't been attempted and demonstrated not to work yet, I'm sure activists will be willing to give it a shot. But the problem isn't that protests alienate the public. The problem is that the powers that be deliberately fuel this alienation. We've had a prominent environmentalist party in Germany for forty years and all they've accomplished is that we've abandoned nuclear while still running fossil, and right now even that doesn't seem to be so clear cut. As money is power and most of that money is concentrated in the hands of people and corporations whose interests are directly at odds with any effective measures against the climate catastrophe, our political system is fundamentally incapable of addressing this if not outright counterproductive.
And just to be abundantly clear: I don't advocate for terrorism. I don't want terrorism to be the end of this. I'm not saying any of the current activist groups will become terrorist organizations, as much as the media has already attempted to frame them this way. But by deliberately eliminating all peaceful options without solving the problem we're creating an environment that naturally lends itself to violent actions.
The contradiction between the urgency of the problem and the refusal of the powers that be to even acknowledge the level of action necessary to address it will resolve somehow. And with all peaceful options proven useless, someone will turn to violence.
@alan well, going into politics is THE peaceful option, and the only one that works. That's what the Greens are doing (with admittedly limited success, but definitely some success). Mass protests will help to support the right point of view - what FFF does.
Everything else is childish at best, dangerous at worst. No matter how exactly the alienation happens, once the activists are alienated enough ("public opinion shaped"), they'll be suppressed. Real jail time will cool most heads.
@alan to put it shorter and clearer, "peaceful options are exhausted" is bullshit. We're not in Russia. There is a whole spectrum between "complain on mastodon" and "conduct provocative acts bordering with terrorism" (assuming the latter is even a working option, which is false).
Have I missed mass protests demanding resignation of Wissing? Where are the grassroots movements to make sure the Greens get all voices on all elections? Why are you bashing the only people who can change anything?
@creepy_owlet The Greens have had over three decades and look where that got us. We're already failing the climate goals agreed to by the previous government. Meanwhile public opinion is set by Springer to the point even public broadcasting doesn't accurately report on the seriousness of the climate catastrophe. The economic situation, the war in Ukraine and the catastrophic information mismanagement throughout the pandemic have rekindled right-wing sentiments after we only barely contained them following the rise of the AfD between the 2008 economic crisis and the rise of ISIS. We've lost momentum at the worst time possible.
@creepy_owlet Again, I'm not saying violence can solve this. But neither can parliamentary politics when money controls power, nor public protest when money controls the media. But that kind of organizing doesn't happen in the public and especially not on social media. Advocating for direct democracy for example is literally anti-constitutional, whether done violently or not.
@alan so you're saying nothing can solve that? Fair enough.
My only objection is to everyone's fascination with people who glue themselves to streets. They haven't achieved even as much as the Greens or FFF. They have achieved nothing at all, except for hurting the image of all climate conscious people. And they even dare bashing those who've done at least something, if not enough.
@creepy_owlet So what's your solution? Recycle, only shower every other day and turn your heater down a bit? If only every other person spontaneously decided to have the time and energy to do the same we might be able to offset one billionaire's footprint.
@alan I explained my solution in my second response here.
majinnaibu@JacquelynGill @davidho It builds solidarity because everyone starts aiming at the asshole in the helicopter.
synlogic@majinnaibu @JacquelynGill @davidho video most likely from a small quadcopter drone, not a manned helicopter
Gwladys Pendlebury@JacquelynGill @davidho If you protest an issue for decades and there is no public awareness and no media attention and in the case of climate change we are at a tipping point and in the case of BLM there is no change and in fact the Dem president decides to give more funds to the police, what is the next step? continue quietly while being ignored, give up and let wait for the day you can say I told you so, or disrupt in hopes of getting media attention? What?
anlomedad@GwladysPendlebury
Ja. Was waiting for someone in this conver to make that exact point:
the people in the cars are the ones who need to loudly demand change. So activists targeting them while The People are not loudly demanding change but quietly going about their fossil biz as usual, is precisely the right way.
Don't forget: the activist groups do not have billions of dollars to rent permanent billboards across the whole country for getting climate context across to the willingly-ignorant and willingly-quiet people.
There is no other way anymore. The People need to be shaken awake, out of their normalcy bias ( good explainer what normalcy bias is: https://jessicawildfire.substack.com/p/its-not-cool-to-overreact-how-normalcy)
"
GET OUT! NOW!
"
And their momentary anger is a good emotional prop to anchor a climate context in their mind.
They need to take to the streets on a weekly basis, like in GDR from May to November 1989. Only then we get a chance for required change to happen.
So join the activists and do road blocks!!
@anlomedad @JacquelynGill @davidho wow. Thank you for this. As I almost always do, I decided to go to Google scholar to check out normal bias to see if this was some new made up thing, because I had never heard of it. There are dozens of articles and so much research on it, going back years. Most shocking to me is that this along with other biases rings true in my own past behaviors and what I’ve seen in others. Very enlightening.
@GwladysPendlebury
scholar-google is my best friend, too.
In the blog post on normalcy bias above, the author gives the example of the woman in one of the twin towers on 9/11.
I picture her, how she, after the planes have hit, still potters around the big office, maybe starts copying something for her boss... because what has just happened and what she therefore must do now is SO outside her usual reality that she can't compute an adequate reaction.
Until someone YELLS at her:
Out !! NOW !!!!
Very powerful picture to illustrate normalcy bias, isn't it.
I never quite got the meme with the dog drinking coffee while the room around him is in flames. Until I read the blog on normalcy bias.
@JacquelynGill @davidho
@anlomedad @JacquelynGill @davidho Yes. When I hear an alarm, my first reaction is to see what other people think, is it real or are they testing the system? I always thought of myself as acting quickly and being a do-er in panic situations, but after reading, I act if there is a small group, but if there is a large group with lots of authoritative type figures, especially men, I muddle. Our cognitive and social biases have strong constraints.
@GwladysPendlebury @anlomedad @davidho We have fantastic data on public awareness of climate change in the US at a highly granular level. A strong majority of Americans are now Alarmed or Concerned about climate change. What they need are 1) pathways to act, and 2) action from leadership.
I've been a climate scientists and an activist for a long time. Normalcy bias isn't the problem, and blocking traffic for 90 min. isn't the solution, in my opinion.
@GwladysPendlebury @anlomedad @davidho I'd love to see more coalition-building, more targeted protests at billionaires and the FF industry to erode their social license to operate, more local capacity building to give people access to better options, more activism targeted towards decision-makers. Sadly, that takes more work, and isn't as cathartic, but it's where the real action happens.
@GwladysPendlebury @anlomedad @davidho We can look to past and present movements (e.g., labor, social justice) and science communication leadership here -- we know what works. I'm not saying protest doesn't (it's a fantastic tool, when applied well), but it should be well-targeted with clear goals. In fact, there's a lot of research that shows that blocking traffic damages support for movements. Maybe we should pay attention to that?
@GwladysPendlebury @anlomedad @davidho In my experience, and this is also supported by research, targeting corporations and decision-makers is far more effective. Giving the public a clear understanding of who the villains are, and how they can help, grows awareness. Creating solidarity with other groups grows movements.
I'm personally interested in growing effective movements more than catharsis.
Thanks for the thoughtful conversation.
@JacquelynGill @anlomedad @davidho I agree, targeting corporations does work, and it has worked in the past. Strikes and walkouts work great, but that doesn’t work in the case of climate change, blm or abortion. Unfortunately monopolies, especially global ones and ones supported by several government can’t be targeted in the same way as a local and contained businesses.
@JacquelynGill @anlomedad @davidho yes we can look to previous movements, and most of the big ones which overturned monarchies, obtained freedom from oppressive dictatorships, sought freedom from colonialialism all included protests, conflicted with police and/or military, and even heaven forbid, blocked roads. Of course there were conservative objections, demonization of protests and activism, because they don’t want to give up profit or power.
@JacquelynGill @anlomedad @davidho I find the ambulance argument to be insincere. There’s little concern over traffic jams blocking emergency vehicles, people dying b/c they can’t afford healthcare or private ambulance costs, but protesters in the streets are criticized for interrupting minor normal flow or the potential of inconvenience. There’s plenty of research on tribalism and political atrophy as well. Many theories can all be true at once.
@GwladysPendlebury @JacquelynGill @davidho
If you want "more" activism targetting sociopathic villains, then you need to rouse "more" citizens. But most citizens r still in slumber or they'd be on tge street every Monday like GDR from May to .November 1989.
Maybe they claim being concerned, but they still don't act adequately for giving change a chance to happen.
At AGU conference, not a single climate scientist in the room let go of their normalcy bias to join Peter Kalmus' protest on stage.
Scientist Rebellion, who carry out very intellectual actions, are 1000 people, mistly not climate scuentists,
and what's worse: their actions never go viral, never make the frint page, and the rebels never sit in talkshows.
Your well thought-through activism won't reach enough people. Unless you can first rouse MORE people to becoming activists.
99.999% still quietly think and hope that somebody else will do the job. But that's not how the wall came down.
It requires more citizens doing their job. Back then, it was a regular <= 10% of the population every Monday night.
For people to realize that it is their personal job to bring about change, they need a constant trigger, a constant reminder that there IS a job they're currently not doing.
Road blocks is a simple, cheap, effective way to remind citizens that they're neglecting their responsibilitues.
@GwladysPendlebury
Don't forget how the civil rights movement in the 60s "blocked" diner bars and seats in buses.
Those activists targeted the general population with disruptive action.
In Jacquelyn's opinion they should not have done that, and instead, only protested in front of government buildings or similar.
The citizens in the general population need such triggers to get the problem to the forefront in their minds, and eventually, to some percentage, maybe <= 10% like 1989, really increase the pressure on decision makers.
Like the whites in 1960s USA, citizens today do not feel affected by the problem. Hence, they delegate the problem to someone else, and maybe give advice to activists how to better make use of sparse resources and time.
Sitting at the bar in a diner, or in the forbidden bus seat, or in the blocked road makes the topic less ignor-able. That's the only way to eventually increase the number of activists.
Again: only 1000 international scientists rebels... imagine that... the crème de la crème of international intelligentsia, and only 1000 have made climate change their own personal problem and only 1000 see it as their personal job to increase the pressure on decision makers.
And not a single scientist at AGU conference identified the job Peter Kalmus was doing on stage as their own personal job.
They didn't even protest when Kalmus' research was culled from the conference.
Lol.
They're all drinking coffee in the burning lounge and are all delegating the problem to someone else...
That's normalcy bias.
Jason, Human, Average 
@davidho Tis but a flesh wound....
TopKnotThe gif is hypnotic.
GATEKEEPER@davidho
I love when Mom Nature fucks over Floriduh
I love when Mom Nature fucks over Floriduh
CJ Moose ⚒️🌋🦉🍻⛺@GatekeepKen @davidho You do realize that 48% of Floridians are *not* climate/science-denying Trumpists and fascists, right?
@GatekeepKen @davidho Leaving is easier said than done.
Christian 
@davidho @SheDrivesMobility Where is this
Lars Ivar@christian Fort Lauderdale as described in the image alttext ;)
Mx Autumn 
@christian Fort Lauderdale, Florida: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/heavy-rain-major-flooding-south-florida-fort-lauderdale/
Torrential downpours cause major flooding in South Florida
The heavy rain forced Fort Lauderdale's airport to close and Broward County Public Schools to cancel classes for Thursday. Water was up to wheel wells or nearly to hoods of vehicles.
Isac🌑@davidho exactly!
Autumn Lavigne (She/Her)@davidho What the hell happened here?!
@AlwaysAutumn @davidho it was flash flooding in Fort Lauderdale, Florida casued by too much rain.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/heavy-rain-major-flooding-south-florida-fort-lauderdale/
Torrential downpours cause major flooding in South Florida
The heavy rain forced Fort Lauderdale's airport to close and Broward County Public Schools to cancel classes for Thursday. Water was up to wheel wells or nearly to hoods of vehicles.
ThomasClimate activist throw mashed potatoes at works of art and now they flodded streets, disgusting, absolutely disgusting!
😱🤡
kira :3@davidho goddamn woke climate
Ministerofimpediments@davidho I believe the excuse is something to the effect of;
“Well, it’s all an acceptable loss for the freedom to drive my 13 mpg, 8 passenger dinosaur by myself wherever I want. Besides, there is no climate change. You just aren’t praying hard enough.”
…or one of a half dozen or so similarly stupid statements.
“Well, it’s all an acceptable loss for the freedom to drive my 13 mpg, 8 passenger dinosaur by myself wherever I want. Besides, there is no climate change. You just aren’t praying hard enough.”
…or one of a half dozen or so similarly stupid statements.
johnmastodon