David HoTBH, this seems worse than having the road blocked by climate activists for a few minutes.
Jacquelyn Gill@davidho I think that's a false dichotomy. I think we can make better activist choices that target bad actors with clear messages. Blocking ambulances and people trying to do school pickups or get to parole meetings or come home after working shit jobs where they're dehumanized all day doesn't build solidarity. Especially with helicopters for the rich.
PatrickMeyfroidt@JacquelynGill @davidho
I agree with the point that targeting the weak actors is a bad strategy but i didn't read the message as a false dichotomy. I read it as something like "to those regular people who are blocked by climate activists, realize that these activists may be sometimes misguided in their actions, but they are doing that, however inadequately, because they want to avoid great harm". Should be a message that actually goals are aligned.
I agree with the point that targeting the weak actors is a bad strategy but i didn't read the message as a false dichotomy. I read it as something like "to those regular people who are blocked by climate activists, realize that these activists may be sometimes misguided in their actions, but they are doing that, however inadequately, because they want to avoid great harm". Should be a message that actually goals are aligned.
LN 
@pmeyfroidt @JacquelynGill @davidho At this point it's either blocking roads or doing a terrorism. Activists have tried literally everything else. The reason you haven't heard of them doing whatever you think would be less inconvenient to the general public is that nobody cared when they did it.
Dmitry Tantsur@alan @pmeyfroidt @JacquelynGill @davidho so when this approach also does not work (and why would it), will terrorism become acceptable?
The problem is by no means that people don't know about the climate crisis or the protests (FFF anyone?). The problem is that they don't care enough to vote for politicians that care enough. Alienating them further brings the risk of even more short-sighted decisions.
@creepy_owlet @pmeyfroidt @JacquelynGill @davidho If every peaceful option is exhausted and has either proven ineffective or been met with excessive violence, what do you propose? Doing what you already know not to work? Laying down to die? I'm not saying I want political violence. I'm saying eventually political violence will be the only option left on the table. In Germany the media has already taken to referring to nonviolent activists as "climate terrorists" and public opinion is being shaped towards criminalizing all protest.
@creepy_owlet @pmeyfroidt @JacquelynGill @davidho If you have an idea that hasn't been attempted and demonstrated not to work yet, I'm sure activists will be willing to give it a shot. But the problem isn't that protests alienate the public. The problem is that the powers that be deliberately fuel this alienation. We've had a prominent environmentalist party in Germany for forty years and all they've accomplished is that we've abandoned nuclear while still running fossil, and right now even that doesn't seem to be so clear cut. As money is power and most of that money is concentrated in the hands of people and corporations whose interests are directly at odds with any effective measures against the climate catastrophe, our political system is fundamentally incapable of addressing this if not outright counterproductive.
And just to be abundantly clear: I don't advocate for terrorism. I don't want terrorism to be the end of this. I'm not saying any of the current activist groups will become terrorist organizations, as much as the media has already attempted to frame them this way. But by deliberately eliminating all peaceful options without solving the problem we're creating an environment that naturally lends itself to violent actions.
The contradiction between the urgency of the problem and the refusal of the powers that be to even acknowledge the level of action necessary to address it will resolve somehow. And with all peaceful options proven useless, someone will turn to violence.
@alan well, going into politics is THE peaceful option, and the only one that works. That's what the Greens are doing (with admittedly limited success, but definitely some success). Mass protests will help to support the right point of view - what FFF does.
Everything else is childish at best, dangerous at worst. No matter how exactly the alienation happens, once the activists are alienated enough ("public opinion shaped"), they'll be suppressed. Real jail time will cool most heads.
@alan to put it shorter and clearer, "peaceful options are exhausted" is bullshit. We're not in Russia. There is a whole spectrum between "complain on mastodon" and "conduct provocative acts bordering with terrorism" (assuming the latter is even a working option, which is false).
Have I missed mass protests demanding resignation of Wissing? Where are the grassroots movements to make sure the Greens get all voices on all elections? Why are you bashing the only people who can change anything?
@creepy_owlet The Greens have had over three decades and look where that got us. We're already failing the climate goals agreed to by the previous government. Meanwhile public opinion is set by Springer to the point even public broadcasting doesn't accurately report on the seriousness of the climate catastrophe. The economic situation, the war in Ukraine and the catastrophic information mismanagement throughout the pandemic have rekindled right-wing sentiments after we only barely contained them following the rise of the AfD between the 2008 economic crisis and the rise of ISIS. We've lost momentum at the worst time possible.
@creepy_owlet Again, I'm not saying violence can solve this. But neither can parliamentary politics when money controls power, nor public protest when money controls the media. But that kind of organizing doesn't happen in the public and especially not on social media. Advocating for direct democracy for example is literally anti-constitutional, whether done violently or not.
@alan so you're saying nothing can solve that? Fair enough.
My only objection is to everyone's fascination with people who glue themselves to streets. They haven't achieved even as much as the Greens or FFF. They have achieved nothing at all, except for hurting the image of all climate conscious people. And they even dare bashing those who've done at least something, if not enough.
@creepy_owlet So what's your solution? Recycle, only shower every other day and turn your heater down a bit? If only every other person spontaneously decided to have the time and energy to do the same we might be able to offset one billionaire's footprint.
@alan I explained my solution in my second response here.