I keep seeing lots of people who are totally giddy about the #Fediverse, who are gushing over it, who want to promote it, who want it to spread.

And who want it to advance. To learn new abilities. To grow new features.

That's all fine and dandy.

But almost all of these people are still fully convinced that the Fediverse equals #Mastodon. And nothing else. At least not until Tumblr and P92 join the fray. Okay, maybe the #WordPress plug-in that's the talk of the town now that it has become official. Okay, maybe a few of them have also heard of #Pixelfed and/or #PeerTube because their makers are all over the Fediverse.

When these people are talking about the Fediverse, they mean Mastodon. And when they're thinking about the Fediverse, they're only thinking about Mastodon. Because that's all they know.

So these people want new cool features or even new cool use-cases in the Fediverse, stuff that Mastodon doesn't have. They want Mastodon to have it, or they want new projects to be launched that have these features.

If only they knew.

If only they knew that everything, literally everything they propose has already been done. Yes, in the Fediverse. In projects which are fully federated with Mastodon. Why don't they know? Because they've never heard of any of these projects, much less what they can do.


So they want "quote-tweets" in the Fediverse. Which means they want Mastodon to introduce them.

Tell you what: Mastodon is the only microblogging project in the Fediverse that doesn't have quotes. Not only will Eugen Rochko never introduce them, but all the other projects have them with Mastodon forks #GlitchSoc such as being the exception. #Pleroma has them. #Akkoma has them. #MissKey has them. #CalcKey has them. #FoundKey has them. #GoToSocial has them. The old heavyweights #Friendica and #Hubzilla have them, and so does Hubzilla's youngest decendant, the #Streams project. Et cetera.

You want "quote-tweets"? Switch to something that isn't Mastodon, and you've got "quote-tweets".


Or text formatting in posts like bold type, italics, underline, strikethrough, code blocks etc. Would be great if Mastodon had that, in spite of other people saying they don't want it.

Again: Pleroma already has it. Akkoma already has it. MissKey already has it. CalcKey already has it. FoundKey already hasit. GoToSocial already has it. Friendica already has it. Hubzilla already has it (look at this post at its source in a Web browser and weep). (streams) already has it. And so forth. This time, even Mastodon forks have it.

It has been done. It has been done many times. It has actually been done before Mastodon.


Next, long-form blog posting. We need something like #Medium in the Fediverse that isn't Medium itself. Mastodon's 500 characters are too few, and Twitter-like threads are inconvenient.

Except we already have that, too. #Plume and #WriteFreely are about as close to Medium as Mastodon is to Twitter, including clean and distraction-less layouts. Oh, and Hubzilla can do that, too.

By the way: Again, Mastodon is the only Fediverse project that can do microblogging that has a 500-character limit. Pleroma, Mastodon's oldest direct competitor, raised it to a default of 6,000. MissKey and its forks have 3,000 as a default. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have character limits of "go ahead, drop your short story in one post in its entirety," so virtually none at all. And yes, Hubzilla has long-form writing on top of that.


Speaking of Hubzilla: Most recently, there has been the idea to uncouple one's online identity from a specific instance. Your online self should no longer be firmly tied to any one server exclusively. Now, this sounds so ambitious, it might just as well be science-fiction.

What if I told you that just this very thing already exists as well?

No, really. No, I'm not making this up. But you should know by now that I'm not.

Better yet: It was conceived as early as 2011. By the guy who launched Friendica in 2010. He invented a new principle named #NomadicIdentity and a new protocol named #Zot. In its early stages already, even with no technical implementation yet, Zot was more powerful than ActivityPub is today.

In 2012, Zot became reality as the basis of a Friendica fork which later became known as #RedMatrix and, upon its 1.0 stable release in late 2015, which is still prior to Mastodon's initial release, Hubzilla. Hubzilla is still being developed and improved, and it has a fledgling but growing "successor of a successor" named (streams) which offers nomadic identity, too.

Now, what does this nomadic identity even look like? Well, not only does it let you move your channel(s) around from instance to instance with ease and, unlike on Mastodon, with absolutely everything on it. No, it also lets you have your channel on multiple instances at once. Identical clones, automagically kept in sync in real-time, all with the same identity, the same content, the same connections.

Your identity is no longer strapped down to one instance. Not only that, but your channel, your posts, your content is no longer hosted on only one server. This means that if one instance with one of your clones goes down, you still have spares.


Okay, so how about community groups/forums? That'd be cool.

Well, for one, there's #Guppe. It's basically bolted on Mastodon, and in practice, it's centralised because there's only one instance. But it's impractical to use.

Besides, this is becoming a running gag here, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have exactly this built-in and open for the rest of the Fediverse.

Better yet: There's also #Lemmy which amounts to a federated #Reddit or #HackerNews clone. So not only does Lemmy offer this, it specialises in it.

Hubzilla alone can provide Fediverse feature suggestions with "has been done" for years to come. Not to mention what else the Fediverse has to offer. Even if someone should want a free, non-commercial, decentralised, federated #GoodReads clone in the Fediverse, it has been done: #BookWyrm.
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

Funny how, in spite of the rising number of likes, many people seem to misunderstand what I've written.

Here's a short explanation.

People: We want bold type and italics and stuff in the Fediverse! And quote-tweets! And more than 500 characters! Please, #Mastodon, include it!

Me: Join #Akkoma (#^https://akkoma.social/), and you've got your bold type and italics and quote-tweets and thousands of characters! And you can still talk to people on Mastodon! Easy as that.

Or if you don't like Akkoma, try #Pleroma (#^https://pleroma.social/).
Or #MissKey (#^https://misskey.page/).
Or #CalcKey (#^https://calckey.cloud/).
Or #GoToSocial (#^https://gotosocial.org/).
Or if you don't mind something bigger, #Friendica (#^https://friendi.ca/).
Or if you don't mind a hard-to-handle feature monster, #Hubzilla (#^https://hubzilla.org/).
And all of them let you stay in contact with your friends on Mastodon.

#MastodonIsNotTheFediverse. Nor is Mastodon the best the #Fediverse has to offer.
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@jupiter_rowland
you do realize that your post contradicts itself, right? It's littered with quirky punctuation marks that will confuse and annoy your friends on Mastodon until and unless
(a) Mastodon groks whatever LML Akkoma is using to display formatted text or
(b) ActivityPub adds some sort of multi-format body thingy (like MIME did for email)

[LML = Lightweight Markup Language]

I support and agree with the spirit of your post but "easy as that" is a misstatement.

@jupiter_rowland All of this is fascinating, thanks for summarizing! Maybe the fact that apparently nobody knows about any of this tells us something about communication, or lack thereofโ€ฆ
@jupiter_rowland it's just the ai craze, but for mastodon. Half the people that are excited about it have no clue what this means or what it does or doesn't do and automatically assume it should and could be everything used for everything and will be everything. And thats just a dumb overexcited thought.

@jupiter_rowland Quote posts are under exploration, according to the official roadmap, and Eugen had said publicly that his thinking has evolved on the subject and not to take his previous stance as gospel.

Not that your overall point is at all wrong, as they arenโ€™t here yet but are and have been elsewhere in the Fediverse.

@jupiter_rowland You might like to try Friendica. It has all of these. ๐Ÿ˜ƒ
@andy @jupiter_rowland Do you know of an app that works for Friendica on iPhone? Failing that, is there a tutorial anywhere? I cannot for the life of me figure out how to post photos from my phone, and if I can't do that, Friendica is useless to me. I can use it on my laptop but that is FAR from my normal use of social media. Sigh. Thanks for any help you can give!
@jupiter_rowland pixelfed is not there yet. You can't change who has access to a post after you have posted, you can't upload in-bulk/collections, there's no exif image info, no space to publish model and photographer releases...
It can become something great, but don't expect people to adopt en masse until it reaches a more mature state.
Same for other projects in similar state.
@jupiter_rowland what provides cross-app/cross-instance interaction?
@Genders: โ™พ๏ธ, ๐ŸŸชโฌ›๐ŸŸฉ; Soni L. #ActivityPub. The language which (most of) the #Fediverse speaks.

It is how Mastodon instances talk to other Mastodon instances. And it is how, for example, Pleroma instances talk to Mastodon instances. Or to each other.
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@jupiter_rowland okay well, how many steps (and which) do you need to take to fav or boost this linked post? https://chaos.social/@SoniEx2/110023142899250535

and what if it were posted on something like IRC or email instead, how many/which steps would it take then?

Genders: โ™พ๏ธ, ๐ŸŸชโฌ›๐ŸŸฉ; Soni L. (@[email protected])

#MastoAdmin we want to work with y'all on getting mastodon ready for #blanketcon, a #minecraft modding event where modders and players get together to discuss mods and the communities around them. we're trying to make an advanced #fedi integration mod for blanketcon, but we need instance support for it. would anyone be open to the idea? we really want to improve cross-instance and cross-app interactions. this could be the start of something huge! :BoostOK:

chaos.social
@DaywalkingRedhead I've never really seen #PeerTube as a #TikTok replacement. Maybe the devs could say something about it (@PeerTube).

@EamonnMR I'm not quite sure what exactly you mean with "app".

If you mean whether users of different mobile apps for the #Fediverse can stay in contact with users with the mobile app named "Mastodon" that you install from the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store, that's the wrong question. But the answer is yes.

If you mean whether users of different projects (platforms, server apps etc.) in the Fediverse that aren't Mastodon can stay in contact with Mastodon users, then: Yes, they can. Each project I've mentioned is federated with Mastodon, i.e. they all connect to Mastodon, and their users can interact with Mastodon users.

That's the magic of the Fediverse. And that's the actual idea behind the Fediverse. After all, the Fediverse is not only Mastodon.

@{[email protected]} They don't have to put up with all these features.

If they want cool new features, they may move to e.g. Akkoma or CalcKey or Friendica or whatever. If they don't, they can stay on good old Mastodon.

What they won't get, though, is a 100%, 1:1 Twitter clone, just without Elon Musk.

@Phoenix Thank you!

@Genders: โ™พ๏ธ, ๐ŸŸชโฌ›๐ŸŸฉ; Soni L. Do you mean me myself in my specific situation or "you" as in anyone with whichever app is the most popular on whichever hardware/OS platform is the most popular?

Do you mean which steps I personally would take using Hubzilla through Firefox on desktop GNU/Linux? Or which steps a beginner would have to take, e.g. using the official Mastodon app on an iPhone?

I could tell you the former, but it'd be of little use for most here. I can't tell you the latter because I don't have any practical experience with it.
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@jupiter_rowland yes, which steps you, personally, as a hubzilla user, would be forced to take by the various cross-interacting software (between the OS, the browser/desktop app, the window manager, the instance, and whatever else might be of relevance), to be able to interact with said post from your fedi account?
@Genders: โ™พ๏ธ, ๐ŸŸชโฌ›๐ŸŸฉ; Soni L. Since I don't have that post in my stream:

Step 1: Copy the URL.

Step 2: Click on the magnifying glass for search.

Step 3: Paste the URL into the search field.

Step 4: Hit Enter. The post should appear now.

Step 5: Do with it as I please. Share, like, reply, save in a folder, whatever.

Basically, interaction with any post is only one search away.

@jupiter_rowland okay, so from something like IRC or email you have:

1. copy the URL
2. manually switch to the browser, then to the instance
3. click search
4. paste URL
5. finally, hit enter

whereas something like twitter it's just

1. click URL

do you see the problem? do you see why fedi is bleeding users?

@Genders: โ™พ๏ธ, ๐ŸŸชโฌ›๐ŸŸฉ; Soni L. Well, if we were to put ease-of-use above everything else for everyone, we should shut down all projects that aren't Mastodon and then turn Mastodon into a 100%, 1:1 Twitter clone with the only exceptions being the name and the fact that Mastodon isn't owned by Elon Musk. Make mastodon.com both the project website and the only instance, make Mastodon one huge centralised monolithic silo owned by a Mastodon, Inc. in Palo Alto, CA (NASDAQ: MSDN).

Hubzilla wasn't launched in 2022 in a reaction to the launch of Mastodon which in turn was a reaction upon Musk's Twitter takeover. Mastodon was launched in 2016 with no mobile app. And Hubzilla had its 1.0 release in 2015, development began in 2012, and the target audience wasn't the tech-illiterate iPhone user, it was the Linux geek.

Mastodon wasn't built to be mainstream. Hubzilla was even less built to be mainstream.

@jupiter_rowland so the linux geek should be forced to put up with that crap because demanding better of your tools is too much to ask for?

is it really made for the linux geek, or for the C89 evangelist? because even the modern linux geek uses rust nowadays, complete with borrow checker. but the C89 evangelist will claim turning on -Wall is against the spirit of C. why *not* demand better of mastodon and hubzilla, too?

@Genders: โ™พ๏ธ, ๐ŸŸชโฌ›๐ŸŸฉ; Soni L. The Linux geek has different priorities than the tech-illiterate iPhone user. It's all about security, data/privacy protection and efficiency and about definitely not being bullshat by anyone. The latter is one of the reasons why Linux geeks distrust non-free, closed-source software. Efficiency is why Linux geeks have drifted away from the 2000s' easier-to-use KDE and GNOME to nowadays' i3wm. Many only know GUIs from Firefox anymore. "The modern Linux geek" generally doesn't use mice, touchpads or other pointing devices anymore.

And the former two points are why Linux geeks distrust big, corporate centralised silos. Friendica was built to have a powerful social network platform like Facebook, but free-as-in-free-license, open-source, non-commercial, non-corporate, decentralised and federated. In fact, federated with everything and then some. Still, Friendica's target audience weren't those who used the Facebook app on their iPhones while neither knowing nor caring what happened in the background.

And Hubzilla was made because even Friendica didn't provide enough resilience with its decentralisation yet. Even more than in Friendica's case, the target audience did not include tech-illiterate Joe Average. Hubzilla has always been for people who either know what they're doing or are willing to learn.

The Fediverse was made by tech geeks for tech geeks. Mastodon was launched in 2016 when nobody could even expect Elon Musk to buy out Twitter. When nobody would have expected a mass-exodus of Joe Averages with neither knowledge nor interest in tech from Twitter to Mastodon. And when Friendica and Hubzilla adopted ActivityPub, nobody had in mind if and how these Joe Averages could understand that, although they're on Mastodon, they'd certainly interact with people on entirely different services. And it didn't matter. Other things mattered a whole lot more.

If tech geeks had always put the focus 100% on ease-of-use and neglected everything else, we literally wouldn't have any free, open-source software nowadays because all the commercial software is easier to use. Eugen Rochko wouldn't have created Mastodon because the Twitter mobile app was easier to use than Mastodon would have been in a Web browser. Mike Macgirvin wouldn't have created Friendica, Red Matrix/Hubzilla, Osada, Zap, Misty, Roadhouse and (streams) because the Facebook mobile app was easier to use than either of them in a Web browser.

Linux and XMPP should have taught the Linux geeks that average computer users can't handle having to choose. And yet, Laconica/StatusNet/GNU social became decentral. As did Friendica. As did Diaspora*. As did Mastodon and everything else that uses ActivityPub. As, by the way, did Matrix.

And why?

Because their creators wanted to create online services that don't end up entirely in one hand. A hand that could possibly misuse its own power. They actually wanted to encourage people to run their own private instances. They wanted people to own their own data. Of course, first and foremost, they had people in mind who were fully capable of setting up a LAMP stack on a headless server and maintaining it through ssh. Having to choose between a one-click solution for tech-illiterate dummies and security, they picked the latter.

Also, they, just like their target audience, like to get their hands dirty on techy stuff. They want control. Control over everything that happens. They want to know how stuff works, and they want control over how that stuff works. They want things to happen the way they want it, not the way some developer or even some corporation wants it.

They hate black boxes. They hate closed-source software. They hate it when they have to push a button, and then some magic that's none of their business happens somewhere in the background, well-hidden from them. They don't trust such crap.

They want to KNOW what happens. First-hand, if need be. And, if need be, they want to have an influence on what happens and why it happens. They want to be able to disrupt it if something bad happens. They want to be able to fix it if it's broken. They want to be able to manipulate it until it acts the way they need it to act.

This, by the way, is largely why Hubzilla's UX is as complicated as it is: It isn't made for people seeking the simplicity of WhatsApp. It's made for geeks who want to assume full control over everything their channel can do. People who distrust autopilots, assistants and obfuscated algorithms.

The reason why Hubzilla is both decentralised and nomadic is because it was made by people who prefer security over maximum ease-of-use for people who prefer security over maximum ease-of-use. For people who have seen too much snake oil and security-through-obscurity bullshit in their lives. For people who want to know and be able to verify why exactly something is as secure as it's claimed to be.

However, this entire philosophy and everything that came from it clashes hard with the demands and expectations of 10,000,000 tech-illiterates who have come over from Twitter, initially expecting a 100% Twitter clone, and many of whom now demand their 100% Twitter clone at all costs. Also because they neither know nor care what the costs would be.

If you simplify the Fediverse by forcing everything that isn't Mastodon to shut down in order to no longer confuse tech-illiterates with people who claim they aren't on Mastodon although they seem to be, the Fediverse will lose a whole lot of power and versatility. Of course, the tech-illiterates won't care, they want the Fediverse to be an as-easy-as-possible Twitter clone.

If you simplify the Fediverse further by axing all mobile apps except for one official app that's non-free and closed-source in order not to break its own license by its mere presence in the Apple App Store, you subject all its users to not only potential spying, privacy breaches and all kinds of private data going where at least some of us don't want it to go. Again, tech-illiterates won't care as long as the app is easy to use.

If you simplify the Fediverse even further by turning it all into one big, centralised, monolithic data silo operated by the same company that also develops everything, just so that people don't have to put up with having to choose an instance (or learning what instances are), you take "somewhere else to go" away from people. And it'd become possible for one individual to take over the whole Fediverse. With nowhere else to go, people will have to leave the Fediverse as a whole, and their only alternatives would be other corporate silos.

Because developing resilient alternatives is out of question. Because they wouldn't be easy enough to use.
@jupiter_rowland 1100 words of mythology, misrepresentation and bullshit. congratulations, my dude, congratulations.
@jupiter_rowland @SoniEx2 I'm one of those "tech illiterate iPhone users" and I've been struggling for weeks trying to make this fediverse work for me. Overall, I LOVE my Mastodon experience so far. I'm a refugee from fb, who misses the old LiveJournal, as the only reason for social media for me is keeping in touch with my people.

But some of them are even less tech savvy than I am, and while I'd love to pry them away from Zuck and Musk and the rest of the parasites, I can't make a solid effort at that until I can explain HOW to use the various parts of the fediverse and make it work for what we need it to do.

Our needs are simple, but that doesn't mean we should be abandoned to the corporate hells of Meta and Google. There's going to be an influx of refugees, coming in waves. At least some of them will, like me, be willing to take a few extra steps, as long as we can make it work without having to try to cudgel our non-tech-geek brains and still fail to learn programming.

Your initial post is hugely helpful, and I thank you. I am trying to learn as much about the fediverse as possible, as anything that offers a useable alternative to the corporate overlords is a Good Thing. The disdain in your subsequent posts is... disappointing, but whatever. You've got your thing. Thanks for the help, anyway.
@Genders: โ™พ๏ธ, ๐ŸŸชโฌ›๐ŸŸฉ; Soni L. It's basically the same as "If #Linux wants to take over the desktop, it'll have to become identical to #Windows, just free-of-charge and without malware. No more distros, one Linux for everyone, one desktop environment, one graphical toolkit, only one of each, whatever it is."

Linux never wanted to take over the desktop.
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@jupiter_rowland I don't think people understand the cross-app story. For most (all?) social network users the draw isn't the protocol or the UX, it's the people. Would switching to a different fediverse app mean people would lose touch with their Mastodon friends? Do they know the answer?
@jupiter_rowland It's just a shame you can't block people by instance in Friendica...
Iโ€™m not sure most people want a lot of that extra stuff though, and itโ€™s super confusing for new people otherwise.
@jupiter_rowland But what about all those people who came here because they wanted an alternative for Twitter, not an alternative for Facebook? Who chose self-limiting to short messages on purpose, who don't want various formatting styles, and so on?
@jupiter_rowland Luckily, all those people can still keep having the message limits, and at the same time interact with the others thanks to #ActivityPub ๐Ÿ˜.
People want something differently - well, it probably already exists, you just have to migrate to another corner of the #fediverse.
@basisbit There may be a few who were given the choice between multiple projects (e.g. Mastodon vs Akkoma vs Friendica etc.) right away, also being told that they'd have the exact same people to connect to, regardless of what they choose, and who chose what appeared as the closest to Twitter.

But for each of them, you have thousands upon thousands who were only told about Mastodon, who were told that Mastodon is the Fediverse, either on Twitter or by mass-media. Including thousands to whom mastodon.social was sold as "Twitter without Musk" because nothing more fit into 280 characters.

It's them I'm talking about.
basisbit ๐Ÿฆˆ๐Ÿ‡ช๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ฆ (@[email protected])

2.19K Posts, 587 Following, 324 Followers ยท CCC, whovian, trekkie, ponies, ๐Ÿฆˆ, Software developer working @ - BigBlueButton - OvenMediaEngine - OpenStreetMap / Leaflet - UltraStar Deluxe / Play Con organizer, runs video distribution services for fandom events.

chaos.social
@jupiter_rowland See me second comment which I wrote a few hours ago as answer to my first comment ๐Ÿ˜’
@basisbit I've already seen it before replying. And I think my previous answer already covers it.

Yes, a few people were shown the whole Fediverse before joining. Out of all projects, they picked Mastodon because it seemed the most simple and the closest to Twitter to them.

Others were shown the whole Fediverse before joining, and they picked something that isn't Mastodon because they found Mastodon to be too lacking.

Most were only shown Mastodon, usually only one instance. They didn't get to choose because they didn't know they had a choice, much less what their choices would have been.

Some of the latter actually don't want there to be anything else than Mastodon. They want the Fediverse to be as simple as possible. Multiple Mastodon instances are already too complicated. Multiple different projects in the Fediverse, each with multiple instances, now, that really goes too far. Everything that isn't Mastodon has to go, also because everything that isn't Mastodon is too complicated all in itself.
basisbit ๐Ÿฆˆ๐Ÿ‡ช๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ฆ (@[email protected])

2.19K Posts, 587 Following, 324 Followers ยท CCC, whovian, trekkie, ponies, ๐Ÿฆˆ, Software developer working @ - BigBlueButton - OvenMediaEngine - OpenStreetMap / Leaflet - UltraStar Deluxe / Play Con organizer, runs video distribution services for fandom events.

chaos.social

@jupiter_rowland
Edge case "technically inclined" non-tech Frendica user reporting in. Perpetually disaffected genXer, product of the BBS -> CompuServe -> Internet 1.0 pipeline. Don't really consider myself a techie though, I use Windows and haven't written any code since a VBScript I whipped up over a decade ago. I understand tech, but I'm not immersed in it. Literally no one "showed" me anything about the Fediverse.

As a Twitter user from the days when the killer feature was posting via SMS I had heard of the Fediverse, Diaspora*, etc bubbling away in the background, but it never rose to the level of something I needed to give serious consideration before. When rumblings of Elon possibly buying Twitter started I knew I needed to be ready to jump ship if the worst occurred and I felt I should be ready to help others who might need to do the same.

I literally just hit up Wikipedia, looked up the entry on the Fediverse and started researching the various platforms from there. I landed on Frendica ironically because it offered Twitter cross-integration and I knew that could be helpful for some of my Twitter friends who couldn't afford to just leave there cold for various reasons like relying on it to promote their business or art or sex work, organizing mutual aid, organizing protests, etc.

When I did jump ship in October it was clear Twitter integration wasn't a priority for me anymore, the platform was a lost cause for me by then (and I stopped visiting Twitter at all by early November). Never did end up convincing anyone who was looking to leave Twitter but relied on it in ways that made other parts of the Fediverse untenable to them that Frendica was a viable alternative though. In the end it was all just too opaque and confusing to them despite my best efforts to help them navigate it all.

@basisbit

@jupiter_rowland I have learned more about the #Fediverse from reading your posts this afternoon than I EVER found online doing web searches and reading articles and guides.
@Rocky Carr Good to know it takes only one afternoon to read my stuff.

Also explains my number of followers...

@jupiter_rowland Many of these sound very cool, but at least in the US and English I'm finding most instances (Pleroma, hubzilla) throwing errors and empty of users.

I come from a networking background. I've seen so many 'better' protocols fail while TCP and IPv4 just keep chugging along doing consistent adequate work. And I feel like I'm seeing this pattern yet again.

@Slyphic @jupiter_rowland
After all, we are not talking here about having to change the protocol for a better one. What we are talking about is that the perception of the fediverse is skewed by one #dominant #platform and applications for it. This platform and its applications will never meet all the requirements of all users because this is against decentralisation and diversity, what is we need here.
@jupiter_rowland Yeah, the fediverse should be explored more, it gets quite tiring over the years to see even implementers wanting things that had prior art and so could benefit from at least being studied so you could make better designs or simply be compatible.

btw slight corrections:
- Pleroma currently doesn't really supports quotes except inline via blockquotes. And while we do want to support MissKey-style quotes, implementing it on our side has been enough of a mess to get abandoned, hopefully it will get revisited at some point.
- Pleroma's default character limit is 5 000 not 6 000, and that configurable limit is given to clients via reusing what glitch-soc added in MastodonAPI
@jupiter_rowland @cstross Do they have anything that lets you make posts viewable by only people you have designated as friends, without starting a new account and personally approving all followers? Thatโ€™s the main thing Mastodon is lacking.

@jupiter_rowland

But that is BAD, VERY BAD! So the Fediverse is split into a myriad platforms -- and hence communities -- with incompatible features.

That may be great for the computer nerds who will join a dozen platforms just to revel in the features. It is terrible for those who only want a platform to communicate with other people...

#Fediverse #FediverseFragmentation

@JorgeStolfi @jupiter_rowland Nope, you got it wrong. Hint: count the number of characters in the toot you just replied toโ€”it's well over 500, because it didn't originate on a Mastodon server! It's a federated system, so every client can read stuff posted on any other server that supports ActivityPub. (Imagine you could read Twitter tweets on your Facebook page. Only more so.) If all you want to do is to toot, that's fineโ€”everyone else can see you just fine.

@cstross @jupiter_rowland

But what happens when a message with fancy formatting/threading/etc is read by someone from a server that does not support such features?

@JorgeStolfi @jupiter_rowland The message gets transmitted to the client, whose reader is then responsible for displaying/formatting that message (or not, if it lacks the capability). This isn't new. It's how the internet worked 20 years ago, before all these gigantic corporate silos took over. (I shouldn't need to explain this to you, should I โ€ฆ? Graceful degradation of capabilities isn't an new requirement โ€ฆ)

@cstross @jupiter_rowland

But that is my point. Email and Usenet had a standard message format (ascii text, unfortunately, because that was before Unicode). Every valid server was supposed to issue only compliant messages and properly display any compliant message. This does not seem to be the case in the Fediverse, is it?

@JorgeStolfi @jupiter_rowland Think back to the early web, when a browser like Mosaic didn't support just http: but also ftp: gopher: nntp: and other protocols. The message formatting was implicit in the protocol used. And worse: different browsers implemented different versions of HTML.

@cstross @jupiter_rowland

Hm... IIRC, email and WWW were fairly standardized and interoperable until the internet was opened to the public, and Microsoft imposed its "enhancements" on both, ignoring the standards.

Ftp, nntp, gopher were not variants of http, but separate protocols with their own standards. This does not seem to be the case with all the variants of "Fediverse", is it?

@JorgeStolfi @jupiter_rowland Nope, it's the opposite way around: an interoperable protocol carrying different content types, as opposed to different protocols mostly carrying simple text with optional markup (at least in the early days).

@cstross @jupiter_rowland

FTP, NNTP, and Email were intended for very different types of contents and usage patterns.

Whereas the "different content types" of the Fediverse seem to be all fuzzily intended to carry the same high-level type of content, "mastodon-like posts/messages" -- but don't seem to have firm standards and don't seem to be fully interoperable. That is, the standardization of the protocol is only at the bit transfer level, not at the semantic/usage level. Isn't that so?

@JorgeStolfi @jupiter_rowland You missed out Gopher, WWW, and HyperG, all of which were more or less designed for the same content (hyperlinked text) but used radically different protocols and different/no markup.

The internet has never been standardized the way you seem to think the fediverse should be standardized.

@cstross @jupiter_rowland

I barely used gopher or hyperG before they died out, so I cannot comment on them. But HTTP, like FTP, was meant for a service very different from email. And it WAS well-standardized enough in the beginning.

Whereas - pardon for insisting -- the many variants of "Fediverse" described by the original poster seem to be creating a much worse situation, in which the (ostensibly) same high-level function is being implemented in dozens of *incompatible* formats. >>

@cstross @jupiter_rowland

And is ActivityPub the only "Fediverse" protocol, or are there others still?

@cstross @JorgeStolfi @jupiter_rowland
It strikes me as weird that we're able to have this discussion on a number of different federated ActivityPub servers, using a growing variety of front-ends, and still there are people complaining that it's not working as well as it should, because reasons.

I still don't know what I'm supposed to make of fact that some people don't know the difference between Mastodon and Hubzilla. Well if it comes to that, they don't need to know. It all works just fine anyway, as long as you can grasp that users are identified by at username at instance instead of at username.

@bitnik @jupiter_rowland @cstross

Are we indeed able to dicuss Fediverse-wide? Or just among those who use a particular prootcol (ActivityPub?)?

And even within the latter, there seem to be obvious problems. I don't see any markups in other people's messages (e.g. cant tell block quotes from the sender's own text). And I am limited to 500 byte posts, so I cannot quote 1000 chars from a post that someone else sent me.

@JorgeStolfi @jupiter_rowland @cstross
Yes, it's ActivityPub (which is the only universally supported protocol that can really be said to define the fediverse) and if you want you can chain smaller posts together, or post a link to the text you're referring to.

As for markup, we managed just fine in 7-bit ascii on Usenet, no markup conventions.

@bitnik @jupiter_rowland @cstross

The problem is not whether the character set and markup should be richer or poorer, it is standardization.

I guess that I am asking for an "RFC" of the ActivityPub protocol AND of the markup conventions. So that every conforming server is allowed to issue any but only posts that will be properly and faithfully presented in any other conforming server.

@JorgeStolfi @jupiter_rowland @cstross

While that's a nice-to-have, I don't see markup as a priority. There is a more or less settled standard for ActivityPub managed by a working group within W3C:

https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
ActivityPub

The ActivityPub protocol is a decentralized social networking protocol based upon the [ActivityStreams] 2.0 data format. It provides a client to server API for creating, updating and deleting content, as well as a federated server to server API for delivering notifications and content.

@bitnik @jupiter_rowland @cstross

The original HTTP format was meant to encode the linguistic information of a document, not its looks. Thus it had section headers, bullet lists, paragraph breaks, italics, and boldface, for the same reason that it had upper and lower case letters: because those attributes affect the meaning of the text, not just its appearance. >>

@bitnik @jupiter_rowland @cstross

>> On the other hand, the early HTML did not specify line breaks or fonts, because those attributes were basically looks, and had better be chosen by the reader according to his display size and environment.

The Fediverse could adopt the same philosophy: yes to semantically relevant markup like italic and boldface, but no font selection or physical layout. So that readers can get the same information from a message, no matter what reading app they use.

@JorgeStolfi @bitnik @jupiter_rowland HTTP is a transport protocol. You're talking about HTML, which was a specialized subset of SGML, a semantic markup language.
@JorgeStolfi @jupiter_rowland @cstross

out of curiosity, what do you see if I use italic or bold text on my platform?

or even a block quote (which I'm sure is not supported by mastodon)

@valhalla @jupiter_rowland @cstross

Does your message above have any such markups? I don't see any -- just plain text, with no italics or bold.