Mastodawn

Alice Climent-Pommeret Mar 11, 2023

helena.handbasket

I've been a professional musician since the end days of selling CDs, and I would like to say that having experienced the decline of CD sales because of piracy transition into the paid streaming era it's unambiguous that musicians were better off when mostly everyone was pirating and then some people bought CDs or other merch out of a desire to support vs today when everyone pays a nominal fee to a corporation that pays us nothing and also satisfies their desire to support despite not actually offering support.

I would much rather you pirate anything I have made or worked on vs listening on streaming services, which are an objective nightmare for musicians. Even if you never intend to spend a penny, normalizing piracy is better for us than normalizing the current capitalist-realism nightmare where you get whatever you want and also get to relax into the fiction that you aren't exploiting musicians because you pay the price of one album per month to a giant corporation so you can feel ok about it.

helena.handbasket Mar 9, 2023

Meanwhile, even quite relatively successful mid-level bands and artists can barely afford to tour anymore because CD sales used to put gas in vans and buy food and that's gone replaced by nothing.

Musicians will keep working harder than anyone could imagine, touring is a nightmare 24/7 slog where once a night you also have to be able to generate enough energy to make a bunch of people's night a special unique experience for them, while you are doing it for the 20th consecutive night.

They will put their youth, or their whole lives into creating these things that are so meaningful to everyone, and they will lose money, and mostly find themselves old with little in the way of job prospects once you guys are done using their ideas to give your liges meaning.

People take it for granted, and think music is an unending well of meaning you can just take and take and take from as long as it serves your needs and capitalism makes it available to you.

You will never be required to understand your role in the systems of capitalism in order to participate.

And having it pointed out that you are participating in exploitation made possible by corporate control of technology isn't a specific personal attack on you, so "yeah but I really like the..blah blah blah" response isn't good enough.

Do you think musicians should be robbed of the frankly already pitiful amount of money we have traditionally received for putting our entire lives into something that almost everyone considers massively important in their lives?

Are you willing to give yourself a little less though?

Mostly everyone is willing to pay lip service.

I like the ones who actually punch the nazis, the ones who confront the transphobes and make it awkward, I like the rifle club people who go protect the drag queen story hour, I like the people who give money directly to people who need it even when they don't have much because rich ppl wont, I like the people who confront their friends about toxic behaviour

Kohan Ikin Mar 9, 2023

@clowncollege You might want to look at what Obey Robots is doing. Indie band on their own self-run label, self recorded, selling CDs & vinyl & downloads from home on their own website, just made the UK Top 20 and was the #1 UK Album Downloads, knocking off Pink's just released album and beating the new Gorillaz album in launch week:

https://youtu.be/l71w6rHs5tk

It's totally possible, but requires building a very personal relationship with fans.

UK Album Chart Position Reveal: Obey Robots "One In A Thousand"

YouTube

Wayne Myers Mar 10, 2023

@syneryder @clowncollege

Laura's great - I've been following her for years - but she's a unicorn - really good at music, really good at music marketing and promotion.

But I don't want to live in a world where the only music I get to hear is made by those few people who happen to also be really good at the promotion side.

Alan Twigz Mar 10, 2023

@conniptions @syneryder @clowncollege yeah it's like, in order to run a successful food truck you shouldn't be required to be a mechanic and own your own garage

Gaëtan Perrault Mar 10, 2023

@conniptions @syneryder @clowncollege

What are the alternatives though?

A group or artist that isn't strong on marketing then needs to hire an extra body to do marketing. That's just more mouths to feed off still missing CD sales.

"Music as a profession" needs marketing, it needs promoters, it needs managers. And all of this needs money.

So you either need to be Laura or you need a lot more money coming in.

xian Mar 11, 2023

@conniptions fair enough, but that leaves promotion and distribution to the hated corporations

Wayne Myers Mar 11, 2023

@xian Not necessarily: if the market wasn't so structurally skewed quite so heavily in favour of the majors, there would be more space for genuinely independent small labels to thrive.

xian Mar 11, 2023

@conniptions it's possible, but that's a mighty big if under late capitalism (and the labels are just one oligarchic link in the supply chain)

as someone else pointed out on this thread, and I know Chris Fahey has in the past, that viable living from selling records/recordings is a 20th century specific phenomenon in the history of music

Wayne Myers Mar 11, 2023

@xian Me and my many boxes of unsold CDs cannot disagree with this.

xian Mar 11, 2023

@conniptions over here i am foolishly exploring the hopeless economics of a vinyl release

Wayne Myers Mar 11, 2023

@xian Vinyl seems to me a lot less foolish than CDs are, though tbh I wouldn't listen to me on this with my track record.

xian Mar 11, 2023

@conniptions it’s more the storage challenge for unsold stock

Martin Nutbeem Mar 10, 2023

@syneryder @clowncollege Cracking album. Can't remember the last time I bought music and played it on repeat.

For what it's worth, I was one of those pirates because I loved music and couldn't afford to buy all of it. I now buy physical copies of all my music where possible because I can now afford it. I also buy downloads, rather than stream because I want the musicians I love to be able to eat.

Katie J Lee Mar 10, 2023

@syneryder @clowncollege looks like lots of people beat me to this comment! Laura's amazing

StephaneHuart Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on Bandcamp? I was under the impression that it was a good compromise between being able to discover and listen to new music and being able to easily buy and support specifically an artist while getting a proper .flac file (or a vinyl+file).

Christiane Mar 10, 2023

@StephaneHuart @clowncollege Thanks for pointing Bandcamp out to me!

Korgie D. 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈Mar 10, 2023

@StephaneHuart @clowncollege I used to love buying stuff on Bandcamp and then Epic bought them so I deleted my account.

I'd like to see something better.

Or something that is like. The same thing. But not owned by Epic.

StephaneHuart Mar 10, 2023

@korgie @clowncollege ouch.. Totaly missed the Epic buyout :/. Thanks for the info.

Erotic Mythology 🌹Mar 11, 2023

@korgie @StephaneHuart @clowncollege It doesn't have any big labels afaik but I like this approach, a streaming platform coop owned by its members:
https://stream.resonate.coop/discover

Resonate

Korgie D. 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈Mar 12, 2023

@AimeeMaroux @StephaneHuart @clowncollege Looks cool, thank you

グレェ「grey」Mar 10, 2023

@StephaneHuart Bandcamp was pretty good. Emphasis on was. I have grave concerns since Epic acquired them, for a lot of reasons not the least of which is near as I can discern, Epic bought them as a pawn in their ongoing saga against Apple.

For the time being "Bandcamp Friday" is still a thing.

Let's hope it lasts.

グレェ「grey」Mar 10, 2023

@StephaneHuart Being realistic?

Almost no one uses Bandcamp.

I do. I'm a deejay & a musician.

I bought 3 copies of Greydon Square's "City on the Type of Forever" on vinyl.

Limited to 25.

Last I checked?

It still hadn't sold out.

Most commercial deejays are part of subscription "record pool" services that deliver crap MP3s. They do not go through the hassle & expense of curating & collecting rare music & crate diggin.

Those who do such as I & keep it real, exist but we are rare. I'm poor.

Brent, in a jar Mar 11, 2023

@StephaneHuart I was just popping in here to ask that same question! Don't see myself ever subscribing to a streaming service, but I do LOVE being able to easily get FLAC music w/o any DRM. When I buy something, I refuse to do anything less than OWN the thing I'm paying for. Hopefully Bandcamp makes that a good business model for bands, even after the Epic buyout 🤞
@clowncollege

drnaturegirl Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege What do you suggest we do? I used to by CD’s up to a couple of years ago. My husband now pays for a family streaming service. Are musicians not paid for tracks streamed, like on the radio where there’s a royalty scheme? Forgive my ignorance. I genuinely don’t know and want to find out.

Sharcs Mar 10, 2023

@drnaturegirl @clowncollege the amount they pay musicians per track is pitiful. I do use a streaming service but will buy albums on bandcamp if I really like something.

Gerard Cunningham ✒️Mar 10, 2023

@sharcs @drnaturegirl @clowncollege buy merch from the band website, if they have one?

@faduda @sharcs @drnaturegirl @clowncollege I've often wanted to buy merch just to support something and been unable to afford the shipping for even the cheapest items. I wish more creative folks (authors, musicians, etc.) would just include a 'send me money because you want to send me money' link on their sites.
I think Capitalism has programmed too many of us into thinking that it's a cop-out somehow, that it's unworthy to simply ask for compensation for creativity itself in the absence of a physical artefact or app-mediated experience.

For musicians, the best option is always (for now) Bandcamp. But even then.. it's practically the _only_ best option. What happens when Bandcamp goes nasty, which it certainly eventually will?

senna.apk Mar 10, 2023

@seachaint @faduda @sharcs @drnaturegirl @clowncollege I'm in favor of a subscription model that would be between the artist and the listener, probably mediated through a subscription platform such as Patron, Ko-Fi, etc. This is how I get a bunch of visual art, animation and comics and I'd be happy to do the same for musicians, but I only know of one who uses that model. The artist could do different tiers for if the listener wants downloads, merch, CDs or vinyl

Randy Noseworthy 😼

@sharcs @drnaturegirl @clowncollege

I'm curious, what kind of a cut do bands get from CD's?

And From Concerts. Jeeze, talk about nobody wining there, except the ticket sellers and middlemen.

Brian Mar 10, 2023

@randynose @sharcs @drnaturegirl @clowncollege

I'm sure I'm an outlier, but CDs are still the primary way I purchase music. I do not subscribe to any music streaming service.

I use Bandcamp quite a bit. I've been told that it is currently the most direct way to support musicians. Early in the pandemic, they started 'Bandcamp Fridays' where they waive their cut of any music sold on the first Friday of each month. I try to focus my purchases on those days whenever possible

einfachnurRoland Mar 10, 2023

@sharcs @drnaturegirl @clowncollege What about SoundCloud?

@einfachnurRoland
Pretty sure SoundCloud doesn't pay shit and is owned by an ignorant megacorporation too (EDIT: I now know this is wrong, odd.that I though that) if anything bandcamp is kinda trying to keep up the original model of album sales. At least that's where I buy the music I pay for.

einfachnurRoland Mar 11, 2023

@the_moep If Wikipedia is right, you do not. That's the reason for my question...

Does it work for musicians or is it too small and only in Germany an option?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundCloud

SoundCloud - Wikipedia

@einfachnurRoland
Sorry, it's indeed not SoundCloud that is owned by a questionable corp but unfortunately Bandcamp :S (it's owned by Epic Games) I must've gotten the two confused as I know SoundCloud struggled in the past financially.
And Bandcamp offers direct sales so I've know of lots of artists selling via it, never heard of anyone using Soundcloud as their main revenue stream though.

drnaturegirl Mar 15, 2023

@sharcs @clowncollege Pitiful indeed.

Ludovic Dubost Mar 16, 2023

@sharcs
One approach to increase the living wage of musicians that have less success than others is reverse progressive pricing (reduce the revenue once you hit a decent revenue to give back to the ones making less).. regulating the share of the streaming service could make sense also. Fundamentaly the money has to come from somewhere..
@drnaturegirl @clowncollege

Paddy Mar 10, 2023

@drnaturegirl @clowncollege The main problem is that the total subscriber money is split by total playbacks, favouring the few big mainstream labels/artists played 24/7 by a small part of the subscribers. So Big Music has no interest to change that.

A fairer approach (that was discussed) is to split on an individual level: take each user's monthly subscription fee and give it to the artists of the songs they listened to in that period.
That way my 10€ a month would mainly go to 5-10 artists.

Paddy Mar 10, 2023

@drnaturegirl @clowncollege European streaming service Deezer has started an initiative to move to #UCPS (User Centric Payment System).
Video from Deezer France:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYJajnOIY78

If a universal music sub service starts offering that kind of model I will quit #Spotify instantly.

How Deezer Pays Artists: Discussing Artist Remuneration and UCPS

YouTube

Fritz Bauer♟️⚜️

@PaGn
Me too. I was not aware of this initiative, so thanks for sharing. Would be really good to support artists directly by streaming them

@drnaturegirl @clowncollege

#spotify #ucps #PayWhoYouPlay

Helena Rigby Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege I do use a streaming service because I listen to music through my phone overnight (snoring husband), but I also buy CDs of music I don't already own because I think artists deserve paying. If I want to download and can get it on Bandcamp then I do that. I just randomly search on the streaming service as better than relying on the algorithms which are usually way off.

)}]Mar 10, 2023

@Harryshelper @clowncollege
If you just want *something* to drown out the snoring, there are noise generator apps for most smartphones that don't need to be online to work.

Helena Rigby Mar 10, 2023

@dec23k @clowncollege I find a lot of sounds irritating so it's easier to use music tbh. He also shakes occasionally because he snores and wakes himself up so it's better to listen to something I like 😂. Thanks though 👍

Thomas Bartz Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege My take in those days was: Even if everyone pirated and the music empires crumbled, there would still be musicians who would make music out of love. What Spotify kept alive is not the art but the business. With AI looming on the horizon to deliver the next blow to the business, that's a consoling thought.
But that's why musicians have no leverage. For everyone complaining that tHeY hAvE tO eAt SoMeThInG! a bunch of newcomers will come along and happily do it despite starving.

Thomas Bartz Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege Not sure if I contributed anything, just a thought, not even a helpful one. Anyway, I would love to see stream2own services (like sonstream or resonate.is) gain more traction for fairer compensation while making the experience as comfortable as streaming for the consumers. Could be a solution.

schrotie Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege I feel this profoundly relatable rant puts excessive blame on consumers. Musicians have been copyright advocates and are apparently learning, what authors learned in the 19th century (& forgot): the concept of intellectual property only serves the powerful.

We consumers are victims of this, too: by commodifying & exploiting artists, we loose our culture. We cannot delegate culture, culture is what we do. By not valuing art we create trash culture & trash existences for ourselves.

Biggles 20X6!Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege I only buy songs. I don't stream them. I'll get details of song from YouTube, then hunt down the method that compensates the musician the most, and use that, as long as it isn't Amazon

kieliscalling Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege I still buy MP3s and don't use streaming services but I don't know if that is a better way 🤔

Eoin Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege As an honest question, how does bandcamp compare in terms of revenue splitting? If we take it as a given that steaming services (outside of the top 0.01%) are not paying artists, how can consumers discover and pay for new music?

I'm still listening to stuff I found 10 years ago on eMusic when it was 10 euro a month and download 25 tracks...

Average Mar 10, 2023

@eoin_murphy @clowncollege I'm not a musician, so I'm curious myself what the actual split looks like.

In terms of what Bandcamp says publicly, I've heard that Bandcamp's cut of sales is only 15%, leaving artists with the rest of the sale (minus taxes) (src: https://get.bandcamp.help/hc/en-us/articles/1500006084082-What-are-Bandcamp-s-fees-). One one Friday each month, they waive their cut, taking only the sales tax (src: https://daily.bandcamp.com/features/bandcamp-fridays-update)

icastico Mar 10, 2023

@eoin_murphy @clowncollege

About 80% goes to the artist (or label) that sells through bandcamp

@clowncollege I always thought the best and fair way could be this:

1. You can listen to each song only five or ten times.

2. Then, you can pay for the song or the full album. At this point you know if it’s worth it and you want to support the artist.

3. IF you want to pay a subscription you receive maybe some % off on every purchase. Maybe a few more free plays per song.

4. Maybe a new artist can chose unlimited plays of his album as a promotion.

This is a free idea, but if #applemusic or #spotify decides to go with it I can accept any gifts 😄

)}]Mar 10, 2023

@ideimos @clowncollege
Bandcamp streaming works kind of like this. Free for a few listens, but then you are gently nagged into buying.

Unlimited free streaming of what you have bought, when logged in to your Bandcamp account.

Unlimited repeat downloads of all your purchases, even 10 years later.

@dec23k Didn’t know that. Well thought.

I guess it’s a bit late to implement when people is already used to have everything included in the subscription. But then I remember iTunes Movies is a healthy service even with the Netflix, Disney+, etc. competition.

)}]Mar 11, 2023

@ideimos
Here is the official help page:
https://get.bandcamp.help/hc/en-us/articles/360007803174-What-are-streaming-limits-on-Bandcamp-

I just logged in to Bandcamp now and started a download of one of the first albums that I ever bought there.
I do have it saved on an external HDD, but right now Bandcamp is letting me download something that I bought more than 10 years ago.
The artist has retired from Bandcamp, so all their releases are now unlisted, but I can still download it.

Christine Schuhmann Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege What do you think about a model like Nebula? (That's a youtube spinoff, but made by content creators, for content creators.)
A steaming platform by musicians for musicians that has a fair pricing/payment model. (Or maybe I just described bandcamp or something, but you get my question?)
Or is streaming in general just an unsustainable model when it comes to music?

Keith Whyte Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege
Reading this, it strikes me hard that almost the exact same words could be written by or about #FOSS engineers, or the very same internet developer/dreamers who contributed to building the platforms that destroyed musician's livelihoods.

context: I (d)evolved from being a musician/live and studio sound-engineer/producer/stage-hand to online network builder and general tech helper for what seemed like "good causes" during the 90's.

gigachigga Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege this is based

Amy Herself Mar 10, 2023

@clowncollege does buying an album off of iTunes (as opposed to buying a physical CD) actually get money to artists, or does apple eat it all?

Jfrench Mar 11, 2023

@clowncollege I don't get where the money goes.

In my early 20s I may have bought more than one album a month but I spent a good many years buying nothing.

Now I'm paying more than the price of an album every month, so I'm paying more for music than I ever have.

The service I use is clear that it takes a cut but X percentage goes to the rights holders. Which should still be reasonable amount.

Yet the artists are saying they get no money. Somebody is getting the money but who?