Spy604Feb 20, 2023
Dave Copeland 

Never ask a lawyer if it's OK to do something (it's always "no"). Ask them to explain the risks in doing so.

Never ask a programmer if something is possible (it's always "yes"). Ask them to explain what is involved doing something.

Never ask a doctor if something will make you better (it's always "maybe"). Ask them to explain the conditions under which a treatment/procedure will work and what could go wrong.

Feb 16, 2023 at 1:51pmWeb
Show threadDave Copeland Feb 16, 2023
Same goes for security team. They will always say no it's not safe, so you have to ask what are the risks (because the only way to be sure is nuke all computers from orbit [which, TBH, would probably increase quality of life for everyone on the planet, at least for a while ])
Show threadKim ScheinbergFeb 19, 2023

@davetron5000
In all three cases, I'm a big fan of “If I were your daughter/mother/favorite aunt, what advice would you give me?” Their answer usually stimulates the right follow-up questions.

I likewise ask contractors, "What would you do if this were your house?”

Show threadDave Copeland Feb 19, 2023
@kims Yes1 I have definitely used the latter to great effect.
Show threadJens AytonFeb 19, 2023
@kims @davetron5000 Mind you, my parents lived in a house previously owned by an electrician, and its wiring was… eccentric. There was a dimmer that controlled a regular socket in a different room. So ask the question, but still think about the answer!
Show threadTim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPEFeb 19, 2023

@kims @davetron5000 Ah, that last one. Some tiles came off the roof of a rental property in a storm. Should we replace the tiles (cheap), or have the whole roof replaced (better, but not so cheap)?

One of the co-owners asked me "what would you do if you lived there?", so we replaced the roof.

Show threadarclightFeb 19, 2023
@davetron5000 Never ask an engineer if something is safe, etc. etc.
Show threadSeiðrFeb 21, 2023
@arclight @davetron5000 Never ask a biologist if something will kill you: the answer is always "yes".
Show threadJonathan DownieFeb 21, 2023
@Illuminatus @arclight @davetron5000 The question is "in what time frame will it kill you?"
Show threadSeiðrFeb 21, 2023
@DrInterpreter @arclight @davetron5000 And how painfully.
Show threadJonathan DownieFeb 21, 2023
@Illuminatus @arclight @davetron5000 And if there is an antidote.
Show threadNoah GibbsFeb 21, 2023
@DrInterpreter @Illuminatus @arclight @davetron5000 Also, the antidote will kill you.
Show threadJonathan DownieFeb 21, 2023
@codefolio @Illuminatus @arclight @davetron5000 Dihydrogen Monoxide, man. Keep an eye out for that stuff. It causes burns, drowning, and can even break bones, if experienced under high pressure.
Show threadchmod 777 KayfoxFeb 19, 2023

@davetron5000 as a programmer even if I know the answer is "technically yes, but it's dumb and will cause us future pain because <reason>"

I just lie and say no, because management never hears anything except the "yes"

Show threadDevWouterFeb 19, 2023

@kay @davetron5000

My tactic is by answering about cost and risk.

“Yes, it is possible but it will cost 4 months and then we have 20% chance of success”

Most people prefer to avoid risk and uncertainty. They might hear “yes” but the lizard brain thinks “your kids will be eaten by local wildlife”.

Show threadchmod 777 KayfoxFeb 19, 2023

@DevWouter @davetron5000 doesn't work on salespeople who only care about the "yes" until the ink on the contract is dry and then it's not their problem any more.

Been left holding that bag for some serious bullshit on numerous occasions. And of course at the point the mgmt is like "whelp 12 month contract just make it work"

Show threadSven KloppenburgFeb 23, 2023
@kay @davetron5000 Maybe a more truthful answer could be "Short answer: No. Longer answer: we can't solve this in a way that will create a net positive impact." (and be prepared to explain how solving this is more expensive in time and money than not solving it)
Show threadJeanne MastodonFeb 19, 2023
@davetron5000 It took me a few years to realize I should take someone's question and remake it in a form that's more useful, then answer that. It's less ingrained a skill now than it ought to be.
Show threadJohn FrancisFeb 19, 2023
@davetron5000 "anything is possible" is my favourite answer, followed by "let me know if the business case pans out"
Show threadGen X-WingFeb 19, 2023

@davetron5000 Never tell people above you no, ask them what you should remove to fit their new request or let them know what it costs.

They love free features and blaming you, they don’t like the spotlight of having to make a tough call and taking responsibility for it.

Show threadDave Copeland Feb 19, 2023

@breadbin Yeah, the thing that always works is “I need you to help me prioritize. If you don’t, my team and I will set the priorities, but you probably would prefer to set them yourself, so what are we pushing down?”

It works pretty much all the time

Show threadadriftFeb 19, 2023

@davetron5000

"it depends" is the usual lawyers' answer. :)

Show threadDudley of Yesterzine Feb 19, 2023
@davetron5000 @alda I don’t remember where I stole it from but as a software team lead my answer is always “Difficult we can do, the impossible might take a little longer.”
Show threadSpy604Feb 20, 2023
@yesterzine @davetron5000 @alda i like to say :”its all just 1 and 0s. Just put them in the right order. How hard can that be, right?” Lol
Show threadJared Zimmerman ✨Feb 19, 2023
@davetron5000 @emilygorcenski I worked with a very senior software engineer who would always say everything is just a “small matter of code” if I asked if something was possible. Then he’s tell me how long it would take…
Show threadKee HinckleyFeb 20, 2023

@davetron5000 Definitely. I treat legal advice like insurance (and the same applies to computer security). The cost of insurance to protect you 100% is never affordable. You have to compromise. But they aren’t paid to tell you to take risks--they’re paid to tell you how to avoid them.

Tell me the risks. Tell me the cost of protecting me from the risks. Then *I’ll* decide what trade-offs I’m willing to make.

There are no absolutes in those fields. It’s all about the level of risk you are comfortable with given what the situation is, and what you can afford.

Show threadPhil LandmeierFeb 20, 2023
@davetron5000 True. As an engineer and programmer, I learned in the early 70s to break my habit of giving an unqualified "yes" to any such question.
Show threadjwzFeb 20, 2023
@davetron5000 Never ask a programmer if the thing they're getting paid for will undermine democracy because the answer is yes
Show threadInky TartarsFeb 20, 2023

@davetron5000

Talking to programmers requires specificity and precision. That’s why you should leave it to experienced professionals like me 😂

Show threadAndromeda YeltonFeb 20, 2023
@davetron5000 I find with doctors (in an inpatient setting) the magic question is “what’s the next decision you’re going to make, and what information will help you make it?” Routes around their tendency to hedge when uncertain, because they almost always DO have a decision tree in mind (…the alternative is really scary) and feel comfortable discussing it.
Show threadSimon MacDonaldFeb 20, 2023
@davetron5000 this hits home as my dad was a lawyer/judge and I’m a programmer.
Show threadJH ShannonFeb 20, 2023

@davetron5000 well said, all of these folks are there to provide their best advice given the circumstances of the moment... you should consider their advice from a holistic perspective weighing all if the available information available... the decision based on the advice is on you...

#advice #perspective #Information #decisionframework #responsibility #professional

Show threadJim LindFeb 20, 2023
@davetron5000 My wife is a lawyer and I’m a programmer and I’ve never felt more seen.
Show threadRockyFeb 20, 2023
@davetron5000 Wouldn’t it make more sense for each professional to know how to reframe these questions as they come up, rather than having laypeople memorize the rules for availing themselves of every possible professional service they might need in their lifetimes?
Show threadDave Copeland Feb 20, 2023
@rockymcrockerson gotta deal with the world the way it is, not how we might like it to be.
Show threadRockyFeb 21, 2023
@davetron5000 the way it is is that professionals are failing to communicate effectively & set realistic expectations with laypeople. There are two possible solutions; one that asks professionals to learn how to do one additional thing (clearly communicate what they can and cannot do) and one that asks laypeople to learn how to do multiple additional things (infer what professionals can do and somehow ask the right questions, multiple times) Which one is more likely to be successful?
Show threadDave Copeland Feb 21, 2023
@rockymcrockerson in my experience, it’s easier for me to adapt than ask others to be better or select them out. One doesn’t often get a choice in who they deal with and tbh it’s not my job to make eg my doctor a better communicator.
Show threadRockyFeb 21, 2023
@davetron5000 so everyone has to be a better communicator except for doctors? You know, the ones who are actually getting paid?
Show threadRich Lafferty 🐀Feb 21, 2023
@davetron5000 @cdmicacc I had someone explain the “lawyer” part of this to me at work a couple years ago, and now I explain that part to other people at work on the regular.
Show threadPeter Kahn🏳️‍⚧️🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍🌈Feb 21, 2023
@davetron5000 @RiverEnodian I sooo resent your middle paragraph and gave run into the first quite a bit will sorting out license obligations for 3rd party open source usage. The fun part is that lawyers don’t always understand the difference between linking with a native library vs including dynamic link (jar or DLL), or use of external services when we get down to the specifics. There’s so much back and forth education where we think we speak the same language but don’t really.
Show threadSparkpaws™ 5000®Feb 21, 2023

@davetron5000 A company I used to work for had a motto of "never say no, always use yes if…"

That way it highlights just how unreasonable the request is.

Show threadCapritiaJHFeb 21, 2023
@davetron5000 An additional doctor strategy: ask them what they'd recommend for a family member. Or if it was them.
Because then they can stop worrying about malpractice, and just tell you.
Show threadJonathan DownieFeb 21, 2023
@davetron5000 Never ask an interpreter or translator how you say something in a language. The answer is "it depends on context". Give the situation, purpose and audience and you'll get an answer.
Show threadJohn FrancisFeb 21, 2023
@DrInterpreter @davetron5000 "as if I was just screaming it out, barely conscious in a semi-coma, with the abstract reasoning parts of my brain entirely disconnected and devoid of context"
Show threadJonathan DownieFeb 21, 2023
@johnefrancis @davetron5000 Ah, so you mean a lecture on post-structuralist, performative, budgetary, antediluvian, socially constructed, artificial data stratification then?
Show threadTrèsFluke HAS MOVEDFeb 22, 2023
@DrInterpreter @davetron5000 As a sign language communicator, I've had to explain that so many times.
Show threadJonathan DownieFeb 22, 2023
@darrenmorin @davetron5000 I work in French and it's common.
Show threadRuth SuehleFeb 21, 2023
@davetron5000 Alternately, if you are the expert, answer the question the way the person asking/learning needs it answered, including the appropriate clarifying questions.
Show threadInsufficientC8H11NO2Feb 21, 2023

@davetron5000

That requires critical thinking skills so the US will have to sit this lesson out.

Show threadRobby Barnes Feb 22, 2023
@davetron5000 @anildash This kind of thinking applied to almost any situation will get you extremely far in life.
Show threadFrank Bennett 🇯🇵Feb 22, 2023
@davetron5000 By reputation at least: Never ask a French person for directions. The answer is always "yes."
Show threadElizabeth Loves DEIFeb 22, 2023
@davetron5000 , solid advice!
Show threadKateFeb 22, 2023
@davetron5000 Good advice! So to summarize, never ask yes/no questions?
Show threadDave Copeland Feb 22, 2023
@funficient Not if you know the answer in advance :)
Show threadTroed SångbergFeb 23, 2023

@davetron5000 This is spot on.

And yes, that's what Legal at <very large well known global company> strongly hinted to us as well. "Don't ask us things in writing, call us."

Show threadSybren Stüvel 🧡🤍Feb 23, 2023

@davetron5000 Hah, so recognisable! As a programmer, I wholeheartedly concur.

"Possible" and "possible within a week or two" are two very different things, and nerdy me can sometimes have a hard time figuring out which one is being asked.

Same as "easy" vs. "quickly done", I made that mistake too. Yeah, something can be easy but still months of easy work.

Show threadMichael BethkeFeb 23, 2023
@davetron5000 Never ask your wife if it's okay to go out with the boys.
Ask her to explain the risks of coming home at 1:00 am, 2:00 am, 3:00 am, etc.
Show threadDon't Squish My SqueeFeb 23, 2023
@davetron5000
A lot of excellent advice here
Show threadYuri VorontsovFeb 23, 2023
@davetron5000 @deevybee very true
Show threadnicksloanFeb 25, 2023
@davetron5000 Never tell me the odds
Show threadHolger KruppFeb 26, 2023
@davetron5000 never ask an aerospace engineer if something can fly. The answer is always yes. Ask him how much you would need to accelerate something to make it fly.