Question: Examples of #boardgames that don't herd players towards optimal play?

Most games have a basic idea baked into the design, whether through victory conditions or something akin to "most points wins, here is probably the best way to get points, fight over who does it best." Once in a while, I run across a game that doesn't have that nudge (or it's so subtle that you don't notice it for a bunch of iterations). These often fall out as "sandbox" games.

(Click through for thread)

A friend & I have been playing The Colonists about once a month. We've gotten to where we can bang out an era 3/4 game in about 3hrs. I think we're maybe 10-15 games deep and have gotten past the "ok, what's my intra-turn optimization" to where we try and plan out 6-9 moves as goals.

Well, we've hit a ceiling though of ~290vp over 6ish games now (today was 280 vs 282). At this point, it's a fundamental rejiggering of how we approach the game vs just tightening up existing play.

It's a wide open sandbox though as best I can see. Ora & Labora is another that sort of feels like that, but there differentiation is determined by an opponent's building acquisition rather than conscious player planning choice as it is in The Colonists. Point stands though, I think both can fit the definition.

What examples of unguided games that don't guide players to optimal pathways?

(Note, this doesn't mean it's commercially successful, or a good design in general, just unguided)

@gpage This seems to explicitly assume constructive games, essentially engine-builders and similar, but really anything constructive/accumulative/aggregative and challenged sustained average VP production rates with an intimation of rich-get-richer.

Random thoughts around those edges: Carcassonne, Fresh Fish, Lokomotive Werks, TwixT, Sticheln, Quo Vadis?, Xe Queo! -- each for a sharply distinct and different reason.

@jcl yeah, it's a pitfall that most games described as sandbox games subscribe to. Unfamiliar with Xe Queo, will go look, thanks.

@gpage There's also an intimation of VP accrual for the feedback. Games with a threshold or last-one or like end qualifiers have a tougher time setting that feedback.

Diplomacy is interesting here..?

@jcl I remember reading a design note from (I think) Seth Jaffee about including "guide posts" of sorts in games, and I think that ties into your VP comment; if you gain information from VP accumulation along the way, does that count as the game guiding you toward something?
@gpage Container is interesting here: they more an action a player can do seems to (or does) produce VPs for them, the more it seems to produce even more VPs or advantages for someone else.

@jcl sighs wistfully... Is there anything that game can't do...

(Seriously though, I appreciate the response, something to chew on tomorrow. The Container remark in particular helped illustrate another way to dodge the giant beacon).

@gpage Yeah, Container is just...amazing.