FirepixieFeb 13, 2023
Liam @ GamingOnLinux 🐧🎮

People on Twitter are using the shutting down of the mastodon.lol instance, to mean that Mastodon “is not a viable model”. Hard disagree.

A strength of Mastodon is that if one instance is shutting, you can easily move to another. It’s quite literally a strength of decentralised systems in action.

Feb 12, 2023 at 3:57pmToot!
Show threadLiam @ GamingOnLinux 🐧🎮Feb 12, 2023
It is also however a weakness in action, as any can shut down. However, that same thing is true of basically any service online ever - happens to online games plenty, they shut and people are locked out (which is why I always argue for being able to host your own servers…).
Show threadLiam @ GamingOnLinux 🐧🎮Feb 12, 2023
Oh your email provider “totallysecuremeails124” is closing. Clearly email is not a viable model. Oh wait.
Show threadGrathFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux So in a decade, there'll be a Google mastodon instance that's got a dominant userbase and defederates most other instances, effectively centralizing the service? 😜
Show threadRassilonian LegateFeb 12, 2023
@Grath
And then 3 years later it will be shutdown, just like all the other new google projects
Show threadenmodo ⚛️ 🧬 🇺🇦 🍉Feb 12, 2023

@RassilonianLegate @Grath oh man, give me a trigger warning before saying stuff like that. Now I'm having Goggle+ flashbacks!

LOL.

Show threadRassilonian LegateFeb 12, 2023
@enmodo
Oh geez, I remember G+ I actually liked it when it was around (compared to facebook anyway)
Show threadenmodo ⚛️ 🧬 🇺🇦 🍉Feb 13, 2023
@RassilonianLegate it was great - no ads, and seemingly the best of Twitter and Facebook. But ... It was centralized and yeah prone to the operators just giving up on it and shutting it down.
Show threadLunar 🛸 ♾Feb 12, 2023
@Grath @gamingonlinux To be honest, this is my major concern. All it takes is one big provider to say, for example, "the new social network from Google" and that's it. One can only hope that having all other instances defederated from it will strangle it enough that it doesn't get off the ground...
Show threadSimon BrookeFeb 12, 2023
@lunarloony @Grath @gamingonlinux all that's really required is for the EU to legislate that all social media apps must use #ActivityPub as a common data interchange standard, and large instances must federate. I think it's plausible that the EU could actually do that.
Show threadSkylar Caulfield Feb 12, 2023
@simon_brooke @lunarloony @Grath @gamingonlinux that could be complicated, I think open protocol would be more appriote main reason is activitypub could be totally overhauled with new features and websites might be stuck on the old version called activitypub due to that being mandated
Show threadSkylar Caulfield Feb 12, 2023
@simon_brooke @lunarloony @Grath @gamingonlinux it’s kinda difficult cause there is other federated things that don’t use acitivitypib
Show threadSimon BrookeFeb 12, 2023

@skymtf @lunarloony @Grath @gamingonlinux
Aye, but that leads back to the 'Embrace, Extend, Extinguish' cycle.

What's needed is some legally mandated, civil-society, not commercially dominated, body which establishes and updates the standard(s) – like, for example ,@w3c.

Show threadSkylar Caulfield Feb 13, 2023
@simon_brooke @lunarloony @Grath @gamingonlinux @w3c Maybe, but the issue activity pub and all the platforms that support are usally open source, I think overall I am happy with how open that is and would hate for apps to madated to not add anything without extensive lobbying. I am not trying to say it's not an issue but I think overall the way we see different inplentations of activity pub, IE misskey and such, while it still interoperable with mastodon, there are features that at the moment only misskey supports
Show threadSimon BrookeFeb 13, 2023

@skymtf @lunarloony @Grath @gamingonlinux @w3c Why is that a problem? Provided services share a common interchange format, what does it matter what additional features they support? PeerTube does video hosting. Mastodon (mostly) doesn't. But they can federate.

Part of the point of #ActivityStreams is that it's extensible, so services can innovate; and, if those innovations are popular, other services can implement them.

Show threadCassidy James   Feb 12, 2023
@Grath @gamingonlinux “most other instances” is a stretch if you are referring to Gmail. You can go sign up with practically any email provider or host your own and interact just fine with Gmail. Email loses value when you can’t interact with others—the same is true of social media.
Show threadGrathFeb 12, 2023
@cassidy @gamingonlinux My understanding is that there are non-negligible problems with gmail deciding that self-hosted/smaller-provider email services are spam, cutting them off from interacting with a large portion of email users. (But the 😜 is also meant to indicate that I'm exaggerating slightly for comedic effect.)
Show threadJules 🍺Feb 12, 2023
@Grath @cassidy @gamingonlinux
Having generated emails from quite a few sites, getting the dns records correct is a big part of not being viewed as spam by Google and other email services, the size of your service is irrelevant.
Show threadGrathFeb 12, 2023
@julesbl @cassidy @gamingonlinux But my point/joke about how gmail dominates the scene to the extent that they get to set the rules still applies.
Show threadMackajFeb 12, 2023

@Grath @julesbl @cassidy @gamingonlinux

No, SMTP, SPOF, DKIM and DMARK are all standards. Google doesn't get to dictate how email works for other vendors, it has to interoperate with everyone.

As others have said though, setting all this up with (hopefully) a clean IP address is not trivial. Unless you're strongly motivated, it's too much grief for most people.

Show threadChris (Master of Potate) 🥔Feb 12, 2023
@cassidy @Grath @gamingonlinux Hosting your own email service is a pain in the butt. At the same time that setting up the software got way easier, it got so much harder to get your email delivered to every mailbox. There is a number of services that have whitelist only services. And even if they are not whitelist only, you have to build reputation and pray that the IP of your server was never used for spam. Be prepared that your emails will just land in the spam folder. Email hosting is pain.
Show threadSimon BrookeFeb 12, 2023
@Grath @gamingonlinux that's pretty much what happened to #Usenet. Google Groups is all that remains.
Show threadJulio J. 🀲Feb 12, 2023
@simon_brooke @Grath @gamingonlinux And Jabber, although it's still in use when Google defederated its Chat was a big hit
Show threaddoragasuFeb 12, 2023
@Grath @gamingonlinux That's something that could definitely happen, unfortunately.
Show threadKazii The AvaliFeb 12, 2023
@Grath @gamingonlinux no. they have just made a local instance that only that instance can interact with. the fediverse is more then just mastodon and non google instances can still interact with eachother. its just Google instance that cant interact with any.
Show threadKazii The AvaliFeb 12, 2023
@Grath @gamingonlinux also google is smart enough to use mastodon for its full potential to advertize google and its community
Show threadGrathFeb 12, 2023
@Kazii https://i.imgur.com/axJmn.gif
Show threadKazii The AvaliFeb 12, 2023
@Grath i do not reseve properly tones through text so i am glad that it is a joke.
Show threadSam BloombergFeb 13, 2023
@Grath This argument has never made sense to me. Things *might* resort to the status quo (centralized platforms), so... instead of it only being a possibility with mastodon we should stick with platforms where it's already a reality?
Show threadGrathFeb 13, 2023
@siliex I'm making a joke about how gmail's dominance has made life difficult for non-Google email services who have to make sure that Google likes them or they can't email a bunch of people/businesses.
Show threadSam BloombergFeb 13, 2023
@Grath Right, not calling you out or anything. I've just seen this type of argument made sincerely and it's just nonsensical even if you think google could completely dominate the platform.
Show thread+>eFeb 13, 2023
@Grath @gamingonlinux people will be able to migrate anyway, download your data, upload on one of the corporate-free instances (that process was the first migration method and is still available)
Show threadThe Redcaps Podcast (Prime)Feb 15, 2023
@Grath

@gamingonlinux

If ppl want fediverse to actually work, no instances over 1k ppl (I'd argue 100 but let's say 1k for argument ), way more development on lightweight easy to self host tools (should run a raspberry Pi .. example instead of Mastodon use pleroma or it's forks or gotosocial), and way better instructions for spinning things up on free tier VPS providers etc.
Show threadGergely PolonkaiFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux
You mea Gmail provider? 😉
Show threadmason Feb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux that, or *open source the server if you’re closing it down anyway*
Show threadlele (Zieht um)Feb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux
Major EchoVR moment right here lads
Show threadShannonFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux Vine and Periscope are great examples. Both killed by the same company ironically
Show threadMackajFeb 12, 2023

@gamingonlinux

In this specific case though it was a confluence of factors: a large instance not having a strong admin+mod team (it was a one man operation) being vulnerable to pressure and coercion from a group of very motivated individuals. It's a heads up to other instance admin/mod teams that they need to structure themselves so they don't suffer the same fate. Mastodon as a whole may emerge stronger as a result of this.

Show threadMatthew MillerFeb 12, 2023

@gamingonlinux

Except —

1. you can't move if the first server shuts down unexpectedly

2. It doesn't move your past posts, just your follow list and followers

Show threadLiam @ GamingOnLinux 🐧🎮Feb 12, 2023

@mattdm

1) true but misses the wider point about one instance not being the entire service
2) true and annoying and should be solved

Show threaduzayranFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux Those are probably the same people who complained that Mastodon is insecure because it is moderated by random people and the admins can read your DMs. As if that isn't the case for Twitter also.
Show threadLightfighterFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux with the number of products Google has shut down over the years, I guess they aren't viable either...smdh
Show threadTravis Newton 👨‍💻Feb 12, 2023
@Lightfighter @gamingonlinux The main reason why I try not to use any Google product. I’m honestly surprised they haven’t shut down Gmail already.
Show thread☄️~Stardust Diving~🌌Feb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux twitter undergoes mastodon.lol moments on the regular and it doesn't have the decency to shut down; this place is plenty viable.
Show threadEstebanFeb 12, 2023

@gamingonlinux When an instance goes down, you can migrate to another one, or even another platform.

When BirdApp goes down, pandemonium is ensured.

Show threadDr. Guillermo Power Feb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux people on Twitter are normies, they never get it.
Show threadDr. Guillermo Power Feb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux and wait till Elon shuts down Twitter. 🤷‍♂️ that will show a few people that centralised services are perhaps problematic.
Show threadBelghastFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux I also view it as a strength that so many instances threw out the welcome sign making sure folks who were going to lose a home knowing that they had one elsewhere.
Show threadNick @ The Linux ExperimentFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux Id anything, it should show its reliability: shutting down one instance doesn’t take the whole social network down!
Show threadDr. Guillermo Power Feb 12, 2023
@thelinuxEXP @gamingonlinux exactly!!! I’m amazed people don’t get it.
Show threadTrenton MatthewsFeb 13, 2023
@thelinuxEXP @gamingonlinux now the trick is getting more onto matrix. That's gonna take some work…
Show threadraphaelFeb 12, 2023

@gamingonlinux yup. the one thing mastodon can produce are instances so big that they become almost impossible to defederate from without severely affecting the network overall.

however, in a centralised network, there is, by design, only the too-big-to-fail instance, and nothing else.

classic case of seeing an unfortunate effect of a better model and using to declare the better model unviable, when the worse model is one entire adverse effect in comparison.

Show threadAngelic_Mew Feb 12, 2023

@gamingonlinux They are looking for anything to be an excuse. Mastodon instances have shutdown in the past but the service is still running...

...birdsite tried to add a feature and basically no one could use it for hours.

Same mentality as Win users who still see Linux as a hacker/command line only OS. They won't change.

Show threadLeeFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux i do wish there was an option to carry over toots.
Show threadtomorrow's averyFeb 12, 2023

@gamingonlinux

twitter idiots staying awayyipee

Show threadSiberianFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux not so easily. I lose all my friends from other server
Show threadSam MinnéeFeb 12, 2023
@sknvlv @gamingonlinux followers can be migrated if you have time to set up a forwarding address on the old server.
Show threadSiberianFeb 12, 2023
@sminnee @gamingonlinux I did already)
Show threadZZ BottomFeb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux 
Show threadDanette 🐬Feb 12, 2023
@gamingonlinux where do they go when Twitter shuts down lol. I just migrated over- pretty seamlessly too. But whatevs