Mastodawn

Jake Winter Feb 12, 2023

From: @pluralistic:

"To understand the future of Mastodon, we have to understand network effects...a product or service that gets more valuable as it attracts new users.

The people who stay...make it a busier, more exciting place...the next surge will find an even higher equilibrium as users who try Mastodon find more fully acclimated users who can hold their hands as they get settled in, and also provide the vibrant community that presents a good reason for doing so."

https://doctorow.medium.com/of-course-mastodon-lost-users-c48ef8102891

Of Course Mastodon Lost Users - Cory Doctorow - Medium

This week (Feb 10–17), I’ll be in Australia, touring my book Chokepoint Capitalism with my co-author, Rebecca Giblin. We’re doing a remote event for NZ on Feb 13. Next are Melbourne (Feb 14), Sydney…

Medium

Tim Chambers Feb 12, 2023

2/3 from @pluralistic:

"Make no mistake, there will be future #Fediverse surges. The internet’s corporate social spaces are in terminal decline, having arrived at the final stage of enshittification, where impatient investors insist that managers reel in the hooks they set in both users and suppliers, using their lock-in to extract every iota of value we wring from the platforms...."

https://doctorow.medium.com/of-course-mastodon-lost-users-c48ef8102891

Of Course Mastodon Lost Users - Cory Doctorow - Medium

This week (Feb 10–17), I’ll be in Australia, touring my book Chokepoint Capitalism with my co-author, Rebecca Giblin. We’re doing a remote event for NZ on Feb 13. Next are Melbourne (Feb 14), Sydney…

Medium

Tim Chambers Feb 12, 2023

3/3 from @pluralistic:

"Meanwhile, the experience of the Fediverse will only get better and more obviously valuable to users. #Fediverse developers will continuously improve the service, even as the technical concepts one has to master to establish oneself become more widely understood and less esoteric."

https://doctorow.medium.com/of-course-mastodon-lost-users-c48ef8102891

Of Course Mastodon Lost Users - Cory Doctorow - Medium

This week (Feb 10–17), I’ll be in Australia, touring my book Chokepoint Capitalism with my co-author, Rebecca Giblin. We’re doing a remote event for NZ on Feb 13. Next are Melbourne (Feb 14), Sydney…

Medium

Emelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic I really love this section from that article:

Lord Kelvin Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic

Clearly it’s time I stepped up my porn-hashtag-follow game.

Emelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023

@kelvin0mql well, maybe — there used to be more porn back when Switter still existed, but laws changing in Australian made it impossible to continue running that instance

LadyT Feb 12, 2023

@kelvin0mql 😆

StarkRG Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic Weird, I haven't encountered any of those.

Globaltom Feb 12, 2023

@StarkRG @thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic you get what you follow. So if this person's feed is full of porn and Nazis...

(Edit: I've misunderstood the point being made! I'm leaving this post up because there's some great replies)

StarkRG Feb 12, 2023

@Globaltom @thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic I don't think Corey Doctorow is following a lot of porn and nazi accounts, but he will have done his research and sought out the parts of the fediverse most of us don't want anything to do with. And, perhaps, at one time, that actually was the case. I was merely remarking that, as it now stands, that is definitely no longer the case.

Emelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023

@StarkRG @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic sometimes you might see it on the federated timeline, but I've long argued that the federated timeline is actually kinda toxic: it's a firehose of everything, of course there might be stuff in there you don't wish to see

LisPi Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem @StarkRG @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic I think it's more that it's a weirdly common complaint from tourists.

Definitely a lot of it would come from the federated timeline... but you can just /not/ look at it (by unpinning it from the UI) or by muting or blocking users or instances.

Or just filtering by hashtags, instance & so on.

I'm not sure how it was on #Twitter but a lot of those users seem unused to the notion of actually having control given back to them.

StarkRG Feb 12, 2023

@lispi314 @thisismissem @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic On the rare occasion I've ventured into the Federated timeline, I still haven't seen that stuff. Perhaps you need to actually hang out there for a while and look at more than nine or ten posts at a time. I don't even check the Local timeline much.

Emelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023

@StarkRG @lispi314 @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic one thing I do know is that when I was a mod on switter, majority of our reports were coming via the federated timeline, which a few people wanted to keep PG or even beyond that like G or something.. and that's just not representative of the world we live in.

LisPi Feb 12, 2023

@StarkRG @thisismissem @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic You pretty much have to monitor the federated timeline yeah, which is how I interacted with #Mastodon & the #Fediverse for a few weeks.

There are a few idiots that tend to group by instance, but I usually just muted them individually. Eventually the instances proved to annoy everyone else including the admins and got limited.

On larger instances these days the federated timeline is nearly unreadable due to speed. That'll only increase.

Emelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023

@lispi314 @StarkRG @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic yeah, I think the federated timeline is rapidly approaching it's point of irrelevance. When the network is small, it's good for discovery, but as the network grows it becomes potentially harmful.

Probably better to have a 2nd or 3rd degree timeline: your followers + who they're talking to + who those people are talking to OR your instance + everyone your instance is talking to

StarkRG Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem @lispi314 @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic Yeah, mastodon isn't great for discovering new people unless you're already following people who boost others. I'd definitely be for an "accounts that interact with accounts you follow" timeline and maybe even a "recently favourited" timeline (I like that favourites aren't included in the home timeline, but it would be nice to have the option to see what posts have been liked anyway).

Globaltom Feb 12, 2023

@StarkRG @lispi314 @thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic you are right - I misunderstood the point being made.

LisPi Feb 12, 2023

@Globaltom Yeah I'd noticed as much, that's why I tried to clarify it with my original answer.

Joris Meys Feb 12, 2023

@StarkRG @lispi314 @thisismissem @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic depends on the hashtags you follow as well. I'm working with the typesetting system LaTeX, for which the hashtag turns out to be #TexLatex. My initial guess gave me some errr... "rather interesting" results.

LisPi Feb 12, 2023

@JorisMeys @StarkRG @thisismissem @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic Ah yes, I could see that.

Such collisions would need manual pruning.

LadyT Feb 12, 2023

@JorisMeys @StarkRG @lispi314 @thisismissem @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic the issue here is to get people to regularly use #s the only people who seem to use them are cat pic'ers and those who get turned on by thick tree trunks

StarkRG Feb 12, 2023

@LadyT @JorisMeys @lispi314 @thisismissem @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic I often forget and it's an additional multi-step process for posting a toot. Instead of just posting what you're posting, you have to figure out what kind of topic applies, find out what hashtag is appropriate for that topic, and then enter it into the toot. I can't see any way to streamline that process, but it's definitely a massive hurdle for me to remember to do it.

LisPi Feb 12, 2023

@StarkRG @LadyT @JorisMeys @thisismissem @Globaltom @tchambers @pluralistic I tend to (ab)use the edit feature to add them post-facto.

Globaltom Feb 12, 2023

@StarkRG @thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic you are right - I misunderstood the point being made.

Justin Derrick Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic You’ll be unsurprised to know that porn drives technology - the inferior VHS won over the higher-quality picture & sound of Betamax because VHS manufacturers provided equipment to the adult video production companies. It’s happened repeatedly with HD-DVD vs. BluRay, and Adobe Flash vs a huge variety of proprietary video formats on the web.

Emelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023

@JustinDerrick I'm really not. I'm the founder of a company in the adult industry and was a mod for Switter. Porn & adult content drives internet innovation in many ways.

𝗠𝗮𝗿𝗰𝗲𝗹 𝗚𝗮𝗴𝗻𝗲́Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic Good to know that, if we need to, we can always go back to the always nice, always polite, squeaky clean, never angry, or hateful, filled with sunshine and rainbows (but not too many rainbows) world of Twitter or Facebook.

crasher35 Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic I've literally gone looking for porn on Mastodon and I've had a hard time finding it.

LisPi Feb 12, 2023

@crasher35 A lot of the porn accounts don't bother to content-warn, which your instance mandates. So... they're probably limited or blocked.

Jeff Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic I've seen none of that

Olav Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem
@tchambers @pluralistic
What bothers me is skipping Nazis get culled quickly. Sex workers don't go around posting pr0nz in random comments (unless they want culled). Quite a lot of pre-Nov movers and shakers have been LGBTQ+ and particularly trans put a lot of work into where we are

Michael Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem @tchambers @pluralistic I've got some perhaps surprising news for this writer if he thinks sex workers aren't on Twitter.

James Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic Slight aside but omg there's a fediverse alternative to Goodreads?

(Edit: it's https://joinbookwyrm.com and it's Django-based)

Join Bookwyrm

BookWyrm is a decentralized social network for tracking your reading, talking about books, writing reviews, and discovering what to read next.

Kat M. Moss Feb 12, 2023

@james @tchambers @pluralistic Yes there is. Bookwyrm.

zeruch Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic it is a cliched chicken/egg problem, that is getting an unintentional assist from the very site that theoretically obviated the 'need' to come to the Fediverse for many, and there delicious irony in that is not lost on those of use who showed up before last year.

jeSuisatire neindochohh ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ Feb 12, 2023

looks like some stock chart's.
may I call @chequera to enlighten you?

cowboybanjobiker 🤠🪕🚴Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic I'm not going back. It just keeps getting better and better here. I can't support Elon, and I'll be here when the next wave crashes in.

Doubledado Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic enshittification is my new favorite word

Steffen Christensen Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic I'm of the opinion that the killer app in the space will be user-controllable algorithmic timelines. We all like the "no algorithms" feature of Mastodon: it is obviously better than the rage-fuelling and democracy-destroying timelines that attracting eyeballs to advertisers requires of Facebook and Twitter. https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/the-facebook-files-part-4-the-outrage-algorithm/e619fbb7-43b0-485b-877f-18a98ffa773f

The Facebook Files, Part 4: The Outrage Algorithm - The Journal. - WSJ Podcasts

In the fourth episode of our investigative series based on an extensive array of internal Facebook documents, we explore the fallout of a major algorithm change the company made in 2018. The documents outline how an emphasis on engagement incentivized the spread of divisive, sensational content and misinformation. WSJ's Keach Hagey and Jeff Horwitz explain how attempts from within the company to undo some of the damage were often thwarted.

Wall Street Journal

Steffen Christensen Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic However, chronological timelines are also suboptimal:
- I post some great things at 3 in the morning Eastern. No one will read those.
- I want to oversample Cory's posts in my feed. There is no way to do that.
- Some posters post 50 tops per days; others,1 toot per week. The latter tend to be better. I want more of those. Too bad for me.

The problem with algorithmic timelines isn't that they are algorithmic. It's that you, the user, have zero control over them.

Steffen Christensen Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic Now that there is a large user base on Mastodon, we can think about how to make algorithmic timelines that actually work for us.

A good solution would be to allow upsampling per-follower of the most popular threads using a Google circles-style interface.

Steffen Christensen Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic A great solution would be to use GPT-3's Ada model to encode embeddings of every toot on a server and then upsample based on shared basis vectors. You could downsample toxicity or rage farming at the same time. I don't know the average foot length, but the average tweet length is 34 characters, maybe 17 BPEs. At that price, $1 would buy you encodings for 147,000 toots.
https://openai.com/api/pricing/

Pricing

OpenAI is an AI research and deployment company. Our mission is to ensure that artificial general intelligence benefits all of humanity.

OpenAI

Steffen Christensen Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic I have about 200,000 lifetime tweets over at @[email protected]; that would be about $2 in OpenAI costs to encode.

Steffen Christensen Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic I've done some experiments on affinity mapping short segments of text for work using the next-larger model, Babbage, and it works very well!
I found only one misfire among my 18,000 task descriptions in all my testing. I suspect that it would work well for algorithmic timelines under your control as well.

FreebirdFrolic Feb 12, 2023

@Wikisteff @tchambers @pluralistic

So peaceful here in Mastodonia, the spaces gently punctuated with belly gaffaws, enlightening viewpoints, facts and Cats. Also current events.

Joanna Bryson, blathering Feb 12, 2023

@Wikisteff @tchambers @pluralistic I've been meaning to write about this for Wired, but haven't found time. Twitter was great when it had no algorithm other than muting tweets that started with an @ if you didn't know at least two people involved. I have to say that I haven't found mastodon as great as twitter was then, at least not yet. Also, Twitter was fine with tapbot & lists, avoiding their apps & algs.

Wim🧮Feb 12, 2023

@Wikisteff
I agree, with growing numbers of users, I think it will become a very useful thing to have.

https://octodon.social/@wim_v12e/109602587133689475

@tchambers @pluralistic

Wim 🅾 (@[email protected])

Content warning: On the effect of fedi growth and algorithms

the Octodon

Dan York Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic Looks interesting... alas I will need to wait for it to appear on https://pluralistic.net/ as Medium has decided I have read all the articles they will allow me to without paying - and I'm not ready to do that for Medium yet.

Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow – No trackers, no ads. Black type, white background. Privacy policy: we don't collect or retain any data at all ever period.

Robert Stribley Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic Agreed! This is how Twitter itself evolved in the first place. I remember for many it had a high barrier for entry and people couldn't imagine the use for it, understand its value — especially when they were following very few people. Then it grew into one of the most powerful communication and amplification tools ever imaginable (for better and for worse).

LadyT Feb 12, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic I really hope so, I'm hanging on here in the hope more will come and bring a wider range of interests

KenBallweg Feb 14, 2023

@tchambers @pluralistic @JamesGleick I find my feed is becoming a genuine replacement for the dumpster fire Twitter has become. Especially as I actively poke around and add folks, and also because the Ivory app - even in early days form - is a joy to use.

Tim Chambers Feb 14, 2023

@kballweg @pluralistic @JamesGleick Same! ✊