Ian WalkerQuietly fascinated by the people who've respond to our article on the special pleading fallacy by trying to point out the many ways that cars are different
Ronan@ianwalker you're getting great coverage, for a fascinating report and a new angle on an old topic. Fair play, no matter whether people want to see the truth in it or not
Cab@ianwalker There's a certain lack of self awareness there. But we'd expect that - how often do we see motorists dissing cyclists of pedestrians for acting exactly how they act themselves? It's a familiar story in that sense.
jnbhlr@cabd @ianwalker I think you need to treat drivers as addicts (that haven't realised they are addicts it's a bad thing) in your brain when having a discussion about driving less.
@jnbhlr @ianwalker Yeah, maybe. Although even if you're not discussing that, getting folk to acknowledge basic human decency in such discussions is weirdly hard. You'll mention you found a rabbit that had been winged by a car and had to euthanise it, they'll start ultra-defensively telling you about how they flattened a cat and it's just a thing and there's nothing they can do. I think they know, I think at a level they get it...
@cabd @ianwalker That sounds like an advanced case of Motonormativity.
@jnbhlr @ianwalker or you're taking your waterproof off and fiddling with your bike lights to put them away before a meeting, and they'll start telling you out of the blue why they had to drive there. There's a level of guilt, a level at which they know this is nonsense, but they've GOT to come out swinging in defence of a lifestyle they know to be unsustainable. Deep down, they know this.
@cabd @ianwalker So the question is: How can we turn this level of guilt into positive action instead of defensive (or aggressive) arguments?
@jnbhlr @ianwalker They want their easy lives to continue at almost any cost. The way this has been challenged with heteronormativity and the homophobia associated with it has been by gay folk needing no change whatsoever from straight folk other than not treating them like shit. Homophobia hasn't entirely gone away of course but the change has been huge. Trouble is this is different because we do need a behavioural change here - and I don't know how to create it.
@cabd @ianwalker Maybe framing is key? So when in a discussion say something like "I don't want to get killed while riding, I hope you can understand that. [project] will improve safety greatly.".
@cabd @ianwalker So not discussing what motorists feel they loose but focusing on basic human needs and fundamental rights, e.g. not getting killed.
@cabd @ianwalker And maybe "easy lives" is something of a bad term. They have car payments and fuel eating up their salaries, traffic jam eating up their free time.
@jnbhlr @ianwalker I dunno. When it's as fundamental as whether risk should be part of it, and motorists say "yes" because they see that as being other peoples risk, I just don't kow.
Will Lowe@ianwalker @jnbhlr @cabd I could believe that, but having lived here a while, I suspect they weren't making the point we all hope they were making.
@cabd @ianwalker There is something similar with veganism/vegetarian diet. Vegans are shamed as missionaries, but as a vegetarian I come into a lot of discussions why I don't eat meat if I leave my bubble.
Melf@ianwalker same would probably happen if you did such a study on dog ownership. They would claim that dogs are different, I suspect.
@Melf I'm not claiming this is going to be the only domain where we'll see special pleading. But it's one where a lot of needless harm is going on
@ianwalker sure. I just find it interesting that this special pleading happens when private artifacts are moved around public space and affect others using that space. And there is already some dognormativity as it seems to me. Parking lots and poo bins are just physical examples.
@Melf @ianwalker Even more so with cats.
"You know cats kill millions of wild animals... "
"No, mine doesn't"
"How do you know...?"
"Well we I know because".
Always the same.