@anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
i can only secund that.
Simple fact is, Ph.D.s work.
And more than 40h a week if they'd like a career. Wether for their own benefits—a later career, which many won't have in professional academia because of the cut-down of fixed positions at universities— or those of their supervisors, and institutions—how to get 20+ papers a year without having 5+ Ph.D.'s working *for* you?
You work, you're employed. No discussion needed.
@grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Pd.D. students definitely (often) work hard. But if that was reason enough, grammar and high school students should be school employees too, and be paid for attending classes, and get overtime pay for homework and exam cramming. And piano teachers should pay the students, rather than the other way around. >>
@freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
"deserve a living wage, as does everyone"
One reason why PhD student grants are so low is that the relevant policymakers often fall, consciously or unconsciously, for a "market" approach.
Say they decide that the country must support N PhD students on astroentomology. If they set the grant pay to $X, and all N grants are taken, they will usually conclude that $X is quite enough. >>
@freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
But unfortunately there are many students who apply to PhD programs not because they have the vocation and potential to be researchers, not even because they think that an academic career will be less stressful than one in industry, but only because they like being students and don't want to get a job. >>
@SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I met several of them both as colleagues during my PhD and as advisor here. And I am afraid that I was one of them myself...
You must agree that a student's life IS more pleasant than a worker's life, in may ways...
@JorgeStolfi @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
A bit of 21st century reality:
In STEM, in the WEIRD world, I need three papers in 2–3 years (five would be better), one in a Q1 journal as first author, otherwise my career ends with the graduation.
In Germany I do this for a net-income that is (if having that 50% PhD position) about 1/3 of what a worker makes at ALDI. Who gets any overtime paid. A PhD doesn't.
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
The demands by PhD students, especially married ones, that their GRANTS be enough for decent living, is meritorious and I wish them all the luck.
But they will not get anywhere as long as they start from the wrong premise that a PhD is an employment relation, and that the grant is payment for the work they do for the univ, advisor, or the state. That is just not true. >>
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Univs DON'T create PhD programs, and hire profs to advise in them, because they want the research and papers. If they did, they would have staff to assess the benefit that each paper or discovery brings to them or to humanity, and reward students and profs accordingly. And they would not care whether the students finish their PhDs or not. >>
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
The goal of PhD programs is not to do research, but to TRAIN FRONT-LINE RESEARCHERS. Univs demand that PhD students publish papers in good journals because that is the only way the students can learn how to do and publish research -- and prove that they have learned it. >>
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
And univs demand that their profs publish papers in good journals because that is the only way the univ can tell that the profs are themselves are capable of front-line research -- because how could the prof train good researchers, if he is not a good researcher himself? >>
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
So it makes no sense to claim that PhD students are working for the univ or their advisors. It is totally the other way around!
Again, sensible states want to have enough good researchers. Then the STATE may pay the univs, and these their profs, to turn students into researchers; and the STATE may also pay grants to the students so that they can devote their full time to their training. >>
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
But not even the state really cares about the research that PhD students produce. It does not want those papers: it wants the trained researchers, and THAT is what it pays for. The student's research is just an instrument and a sometimes valuable byproduct; not the goal of the PhD program. >>
@JorgeStolfi @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
You are free to remain in your ivory tower until you get your well-merited state-funded pension.
Meanwhile, others, especially PhDs, will have to deal with reality in their respective fields.
But I take great comfort in the knowledge that PIs of my age think like me, not like you.
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
But WHO is actually paying your PhD students, and why?
@JorgeStolfi @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
You mean me? Never could afford any. Personal grants, all wasted on my salary. A post-doc in Sweden amounts to 1 MSEK per year, the average (lagom) research project is funded by 3–4 MSEK for 4 years.
My PhD was paid by a DFG grant to my supervisor, and applied for, so she could hire me. I delayed my thesis so we could use the other half to cross-finance another PhD.
Reality. 20 yrs ago.
@JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
If the only aim of PhD programmes was education there would be no expectation of publications.
In fact it's closer to the truth to say that PhD students are regarded as cheap labour who work to glorify the university and of their supervisors. Any benefit to the student is coincidental.
@david_colquhoun @JorgeStolfi @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I would even go that far to say that in research, the title itself is just a bycatch of a PhD project. And I made my "Dr. rer. nat." two decades ago.
@david_colquhoun @grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Please read again what I wrote. Univs demand that students publish papers only because that is the only way to EDUCATE them to do good research.
You have it exactly backwards. PhD programs exist for the benefit the students -- specifically for their training as researchers. Glory to the univ and advisors is only an incidental and non-essential benefit.
@JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Obviously this topic has generated a lot of debate and strong feelings.
I do not believe and my own experience and what I have seen is that graduate students are simply treated as cheap labour. Rather I think most supervisors and many universities have a honest commitment to both the training of students and the creation of knowledge... 1/2
@JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Students should be treated fairly and should not be exploited for their labor. But I do agree that the relationship between graduate students and the university is not (or at least "should not") be as employee and employer.
None of this is not to say there are problem with the modern university. 2/2
@allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I totally agree.
For sure, a PhD shouldn't be treated worse than an employee, which we do, if we expect them to work on their thesis without backing them financially because they "only do it for themselves" as Jorge insists.
And we did in Germany when I made my PhD (not me, I was lucky): technicians were treated better than PhDs. And better paid.
(1/2)
@allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
(2/2) In the 90s financing constraints were occassionally creatively solved by applying for a technician or postdoc, and then just cut that position into two for cross-financing two PhD candidates.
But in the zeroes, you wouldn't get any technician anymore only a PhD ("better investment"), and having the other running as stipendiate (no benefits)
@grimmiges @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I can't really speak for other people, but I do not think that is actually what Jorge insists.
Phd students should not be treated poorly (nobody should), but I do not think they should be seen simply as employees (the is/ought distinction I think has gotten confused in this discussion).
The goal should be to have phd students gain the skills to create new science
@allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Nope, it was only accidently or purposely diverted by obscure analogies to astronauts and glass blowers.
The orig. question was whether PhD candidates should have the same rights (e.g. to unionise and strike) and soc. benef. as any other employee.
Turning into a discussion whether they should be paid for working on "their" thesis. E.g. Jorge/Brazil vs Sweden.
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @academicchatter
The whole problem I think is to simplify the question to "should they be either simply employees or simply students"?
I believe both French and Swedish stances are that they should not be simply either, but both at the same time.
1/2
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @academicchatter
As students, they are entitled to have their supervisors teach them to become independent researchers.
As employees, they should have rights, benefits, and also obligations with respect to their employer (such as leaving their data in order for further use/scrutiny when leaving, e.g.).
2/2
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I probably should have shared this earlier. Virtually all Research 1 US universities stipend Ph.D. students for their TAing or research assistantship (max 20hrs/week)
The UC system, the largest public university system in the US and I think the world is unionized, as are most others.
UC grad students just negotiated a new contract that is equivalent to a $95,000/year full time salary (they will get $34,000 for 50% 9 months employment, or about $45,000 for 12 months, full tuition remission, health benefits, child care, and leave.
@ZingerLearns @grimmiges @allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
In Texas (sigh), new PhD programs are being created at small universities in order to bring in more money to the university from the State of Texas (PhD programs bring in more money than Masters and undergrad). The faculty will not be able to keep their jobs unless their PhD students produce papers. The PhD students are a commodity.
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
That was as you posed the question, but it is the wrong question.
How much they are paid, whether they have workers benefits, what is the legal status of the contract -- those are minor bureaucratic details.
The important question is WHO is working for WHOM with WHAT GOAL. The answer to this question determines who should pay who, and what the work should be. >>
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
The answer to that question can be summarized in a word, "education" or "job" (or half time of each -- but separate halves). >>
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
If it is "education", then the univ, the advisor, and the student work for the benefit of the student -- and, in the measure that the country needs researchers, for the benefit of the country. The univ and the advisor have the obligation to train the student. The work that the student puts into it is no different than that of a high-schooler. >>
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
If the answer is "job", then the student is working for the univ and advisor, and should do whatever these bosses command -- even if it is to sweep the floor and wax the advisor's boots. Univ and advisor should not care about whether the student learns anything, only that he does what he is told. And they should be free to dismiss the student at any time. >>
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I have no doubt that a PhD program should be "education", not "job". I find it unfortunate that many PIs, abusing their control over state funding, came to think of PhD students as employees -- and therefore treat them as described above.
Those PIs who need people to work for them should hire research assistants, instead of (ab)using PhD students for that end.
@johank76 @grimmiges @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
My employer is the state and I have tenure, so technically my head of department cannot tell me to do that. But I did have to move my furniture myself when he decided to replace the roof of my office, for example. 😜
@johank76 @grimmiges @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Not a false dichotomy. I know several advisors who literally and shamelessly use their Masters and PhD students as programmers, paid by the state, for their consulting contracts -- without regard for whether the student is learning anything from the work.
That is not much better than waxing the advisor's boots. It is totally not what a PhD should be.
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
"without backing them financially..." as Jorge insists."
Please, I did not write that! I have said several times that sensible states should pay the universities to "produce" researchers, AND should give decent support to the students while they train for that.
@JorgeStolfi @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
"Decent support" for a PhD is a proper work contract with social benefits and security not food stamps, free lectures and supportive "advisors".
It's intolerable that somebody who completed their university education (i.e. a Masters degree) shouldn't have the minimum wage of any properly employed worker.
@grimmiges @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Again, again, the proper AMOUNT of a PhD grant is a separate question. I am definitely NOT arguing that current grants in Germany or Zimbabwe are good enough.
But it is futile to try to argue that a PhD grant should equal a company salary "because the PhD student is an employee of the univ" (or the State). That argument will not work, because it is not true.
In case you missed it: Reality, France.
https://scicomm.xyz/@jocelyn_etienne/109682874473245174
Reality Denmark: https://mastodon.world/@SuneAuken/109681739516483426
It's not only Sweden that follows a "futile argumentation".
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] France isn't as good, but 3 years after defence 93% #PhD are in employment, with 66% on a stable job. Median wages are not huge, €2150 (sociology) to 2700 (maths) depending on the field, but 95% are on mid/upper executive jobs. 47% are in academia, 19% in private-sector research-related jobs, 15% are in public sector outside academia (used to be mostly school teaching, but a growing number of experts I believe - no figures on this).
@grimmiges @JorgeStolfi @allanmccoy @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
This conversation is highly interesting and pertinent. In Colombia, we havea similar discusion but with Post-Docs! (There is a confussion about pos-docts being another educational level).
At the end of the month, we'll have a panel talking about this situation with pos-docts.
But, why don't you meet in an online space, panel, and talk about this?
@JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I read what you write but it's all tunnel-view of somebody living in what in FR, SE or DE would qualify for a pre-1968 bubble.
Or plainly stupid: "Glory to the univ and advisors is only incidental and non-essential benefit" shows you haven't been to any faculty meeting in the last 20–30 yrs.
@grimmiges @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Grimmiges, I have been dean of my department and sat at the univ Council for 4 years, wrote dozens of grant proposals, sat in dozen of exam committees of PhD theses and faculty hiring examinations over the past 30 years. (And my univ is Shangaied as #2 in Brazil.)
Maybe it is you who needs to think harder at what a PhD program really is and should be?
@JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Ah. That explains a lot.
Consider yourself lucky to be where you are. Because you, sir, are the problem that started this whole thread.
@grimmiges @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
No, sorry. The root of the problem is that many PIs, like you, have become used to viewing PhDs as semi-slaves who are supposed to work for the advisor, rather than the other way around.
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