@grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

Pd.D. students definitely (often) work hard. But if that was reason enough, grammar and high school students should be school employees too, and be paid for attending classes, and get overtime pay for homework and exam cramming. And piano teachers should pay the students, rather than the other way around. >>

@freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

"deserve a living wage, as does everyone"

One reason why PhD student grants are so low is that the relevant policymakers often fall, consciously or unconsciously, for a "market" approach.

Say they decide that the country must support N PhD students on astroentomology. If they set the grant pay to $X, and all N grants are taken, they will usually conclude that $X is quite enough. >>

@freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

But unfortunately there are many students who apply to PhD programs not because they have the vocation and potential to be researchers, not even because they think that an academic career will be less stressful than one in industry, but only because they like being students and don't want to get a job. >>

@SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

I met several of them both as colleagues during my PhD and as advisor here. And I am afraid that I was one of them myself...

You must agree that a student's life IS more pleasant than a worker's life, in may ways...

@JorgeStolfi @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

A bit of 21st century reality:
In STEM, in the WEIRD world, I need three papers in 2–3 years (five would be better), one in a Q1 journal as first author, otherwise my career ends with the graduation.

In Germany I do this for a net-income that is (if having that 50% PhD position) about 1/3 of what a worker makes at ALDI. Who gets any overtime paid. A PhD doesn't.

@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

The demands by PhD students, especially married ones, that their GRANTS be enough for decent living, is meritorious and I wish them all the luck.

But they will not get anywhere as long as they start from the wrong premise that a PhD is an employment relation, and that the grant is payment for the work they do for the univ, advisor, or the state. That is just not true. >>

@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

Univs DON'T create PhD programs, and hire profs to advise in them, because they want the research and papers. If they did, they would have staff to assess the benefit that each paper or discovery brings to them or to humanity, and reward students and profs accordingly. And they would not care whether the students finish their PhDs or not. >>

@grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

The goal of PhD programs is not to do research, but to TRAIN FRONT-LINE RESEARCHERS. Univs demand that PhD students publish papers in good journals because that is the only way the students can learn how to do and publish research -- and prove that they have learned it. >>

@JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

If the only aim of PhD programmes was education there would be no expectation of publications.

In fact it's closer to the truth to say that PhD students are regarded as cheap labour who work to glorify the university and of their supervisors. Any benefit to the student is coincidental.

@david_colquhoun @grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

Please read again what I wrote. Univs demand that students publish papers only because that is the only way to EDUCATE them to do good research.

You have it exactly backwards. PhD programs exist for the benefit the students -- specifically for their training as researchers. Glory to the univ and advisors is only an incidental and non-essential benefit.

@JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

Obviously this topic has generated a lot of debate and strong feelings.

I do not believe and my own experience and what I have seen is that graduate students are simply treated as cheap labour. Rather I think most supervisors and many universities have a honest commitment to both the training of students and the creation of knowledge... 1/2

@JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @grimmiges @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

Students should be treated fairly and should not be exploited for their labor. But I do agree that the relationship between graduate students and the university is not (or at least "should not") be as employee and employer.

None of this is not to say there are problem with the modern university. 2/2

@allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

I totally agree.

For sure, a PhD shouldn't be treated worse than an employee, which we do, if we expect them to work on their thesis without backing them financially because they "only do it for themselves" as Jorge insists.

And we did in Germany when I made my PhD (not me, I was lucky): technicians were treated better than PhDs. And better paid.
(1/2)

@allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

(2/2) In the 90s financing constraints were occassionally creatively solved by applying for a technician or postdoc, and then just cut that position into two for cross-financing two PhD candidates.

But in the zeroes, you wouldn't get any technician anymore only a PhD ("better investment"), and having the other running as stipendiate (no benefits)

@grimmiges @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

I can't really speak for other people, but I do not think that is actually what Jorge insists.

Phd students should not be treated poorly (nobody should), but I do not think they should be seen simply as employees (the is/ought distinction I think has gotten confused in this discussion).

The goal should be to have phd students gain the skills to create new science

@allanmccoy @JorgeStolfi @david_colquhoun @SteveCooke @freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter

Nope, it was only accidently or purposely diverted by obscure analogies to astronauts and glass blowers.

The orig. question was whether PhD candidates should have the same rights (e.g. to unionise and strike) and soc. benef. as any other employee.

Turning into a discussion whether they should be paid for working on "their" thesis. E.g. Jorge/Brazil vs Sweden.