@anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
i can only secund that.
Simple fact is, Ph.D.s work.
And more than 40h a week if they'd like a career. Wether for their own benefits—a later career, which many won't have in professional academia because of the cut-down of fixed positions at universities— or those of their supervisors, and institutions—how to get 20+ papers a year without having 5+ Ph.D.'s working *for* you?
You work, you're employed. No discussion needed.
@grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Pd.D. students definitely (often) work hard. But if that was reason enough, grammar and high school students should be school employees too, and be paid for attending classes, and get overtime pay for homework and exam cramming. And piano teachers should pay the students, rather than the other way around. >>
@grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
>> A Masters degree is generally does not qualify one to be a researcher. While a Master (or any employee) may learn while employed, that is not the point of the employment: he is supposed to work on whatever the company needs, whether it is educational or not -- and be paid for *that*. >>
@grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
>> Note that in Nordic countries students are STATE employees, not university employees. Because it is the STATE who expects to benefit from them getting the PhD education. And for the same reason the STATE will pay the univ: because the univ is giving more than what it receives.
@JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter You really seem to feel like that you do more work for your graduate students than they do for you? It is true for the counter-examples you give.
The research they do is value for you and your university. Their part in education is what brings in tuition, etc. Universities produce education and research output. Grad students directly contribute to the core business of universities, almost 100% of their time.
@harcel @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I *do* work a lot for my grad students, often more than 40 h/week. While each student gets only a fraction of my work, I do believe that what I give them is much more valuable to their careers (academic or not) than what they give me. (As a tenured prof, I do not get much concrete reward from publishing more papers, other than the pleasure of doing research.)
And the same is true for many (not all, of course) other advisors.
@harcel @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
This is bizarre. Yes, course: just like when I am giving lectures in undergraduate courses, while advising **I** am working **for the students**, not the other way around. In both case the students are not working for me, but for themselves, and for whoever is paying their studies and my salary (the state, in my case).
@JorgeStolfi @harcel @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
A pupil or undergraduate doesn't operate machinery, doesn't produce data, doesn't contribute to a publication or is part of any sort of research, service or else.
While in some academic disciplines and countries Ph.D.s are handed out for attending lectures, e.g. far the most M.D.s never did anything qualifying really for a Ph.D., this is not what we are talking about. But actual Ph.D.s
@harcel @JorgeStolfi @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
It's not only valuable, it's the very reason it makes profits (in monetocraties like the U.S.) or exists at all ("welfare states")
In the U.S. patents make up a huge share of the profit, with the M.Sc. and Ph.D. students being used as technicians, albeit not properly paid or treated as employees.
In Germany, universities get more money the more papers/students they have.
@grimmiges @harcel @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Only a few universities obtain profits from patents that result from PhD research. Anyway, in those cases the student should get part of the royalties too -- only part, because he would hardly have made the invention on his own.
@JorgeStolfi @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
This simply demonstrates a severe misunderstanding what a Ph.D. is.
It's not just an educational degree.
The very reason Germany pays 50% for a Ph.D. is because — it says so in the standard contract with the instiution not the "STATE" – they should work 50% for their institute/department and the rest use for their "Ausbildung": on their thesis.
Also, private companies pay their employees for further qualification.
(1/2)
@grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Well, then it makes sense that PhD students in Germany be 1/2 time employees of the university.
Most universities require students to do some teaching work as part of their PhD. Without going into the question of whether such requirement is sensible, of course the university should pay the student for THAT work.
@JorgeStolfi @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
(2/2) In the Anglosaxon system, now adapted widely, I can enter the job market with a mere bachelors degree.
Arguing that because a scientist (Master, Ph.D.) works for tax-paid but notably independent(!) institutions, one should not be treated as an employee, is simply ludicrous.
Especially when compared to other public jobs (administration, police) or the private sector.
@grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
But that is the point: a Masters or PhD student is *not* working for the university, or his advisor. It is the other way around...
@JorgeStolfi @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Are you kidding? For the education part you pay in the U.S., heftily.
And in the welfare states, society pays for it. Much as it pays for keeping up huge profits in the private sector, which, BTW, outsources quite some development costs to state-funded institutes.
My contracts (HiWi onwards) were with my institutions, and there you could read for what I was literally employed and for how long.
@grimmiges @JorgeStolfi @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter I'm not sure but there might also be cultural differences - in the Netherlands where I did my PhD, it was after a 4-year degree, not right after a BSc instead of a Masters, and heavily skewed to working as a researcher rather than "formal" education; which might differ elsewhere.
But even if you need more of it at a different level, you've definitely had copious amounts of training. And PIs need cheap *labour*, let's be real.
@TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
PhD is DEFINTELY an educational program: its goal is to TEACH the student to do front-line research. But the only way to do it is to have the student work hard on such research.
If the goal was the research itself, there would be no PhD programs at the universities. The State would just do what it already does: fund only *research institutes*, which hire researchers as employees, without wasting their time with thesis etc.
@TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
That said, as I wrote before, many unoversities, departments, and advisors do abuse their students in various ways.
When I started my PhD, in the late 1970s, doctorates in the UK were among the hardest in the world. In the US, once you are admitted to a PhD program, with just hard work you can be fairly certain to exit at the other end with a degree. That was not the case in the UK. >>
@TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Back then, to get a PhD in the UK you had to make some really significant scientific discovery, and be the first to publish it. I know someone who lost many years of PhD work because someone else published his big result just before he defended his thesis. >>
@TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
But then Thatcher happened, and British universities, in desperation, turned their PhD programs into cash cows. One could then get a PhD in under 3 years, by taking a few courses and doing some MS-level "research" work. The schools charged high tuition and "marketed" the programs heavily overseas, to attract foreign students with grants from their govs. >>
@TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
One British university president even commented openly that "each foreign PhD we make is so many feet of books added to our library". The thing became so bad that even here in Brazil the gov had to warn prospective students that they should avoid applying to PhDs in the UK, since they would have fewer chances of obtaining grants.
@JorgeStolfi @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I cannot put this nicely: you really have NO idea about how science and Ph.D. reality in the 21st century.
What you describe is the academic serfdom of a bygone era. At least in developed states. And even developing science nations:
In Turkey, you can only start a Ph.D. when there is an according open position, and you'd be guaranteed a job afterwards (system going back to Atatürk)
@grimmiges @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Well, what you call a "PhD" in Turkey is obviously not what "PhD" means in the rest of the world. It is more like the Italian system of country-wide exams for academic jobs.
@JorgeStolfi @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
It's a Ph.D., by international standards. Only that this system avoids overproduction of Ph.D.s who than start working as cashiers in supermarkets or replacement teachers at schools.
Andere Länder, andere Sitten. Some systems are better than others. And those that don't pay for work done are simply the worst and cannot be excused.
@grimmiges @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Again: work that PhD students do ONLY for the benefit of the University or the advisor should be treated as employment and paid accordingly. But work that a student does towards his thesis is for HIM, just like the work of any students at any lower level. And advising, like teaching, is work *by the advisor*, *for him* too.
@JorgeStolfi @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
So, investment bankers and managers shouldn't get salaries. After all they only do it for themselves and get boni (additionally).
There no "work towards one's thesis", anything you do for "your" thesis is
1) (ideally) for scientific advance of humanity as a whole and,
2) specifically, to be published. And there are no single-authored papers around anymore. Rarely by Ph.D.s even before.
@JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne
@JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter Sketching my experience: bigshot PI gets millions to "do research", and uses that to buy say a dozen PhD students and maybe a postdoc or two who all work to actually do that research. The PI is last author on everything automatically and therefore gets the next big grant.
The PhD students are first and foremost working towards the interests of the PI; they get a doctorate at the end but won't necessarily be set for a career.
@TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Yes, I know some such "feudal" researchers with big "research estates". But many of them DO give enough advice and help to the students to more than compensate what they get from the students. >>
@TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Becoming a good researcher without going through a PhD program is like becoming a world-class pianist without the help of a piano teacher and doing a zillion hours of practice with his/her supervision. It is not impossible, but very very hard. Choosing problems, developing theories, planning experiments, analyzing data, writing convincing papers --- I learned all that in my PhD, and would hardly learn it otherwise.
@JorgeStolfi @TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter I think this also raises questions of what counts as "doing research" the academy as a whole has created criteria and hierarchies designed to privilege and marginalize. To your analogy. It's like only recognizing classical music with classic training as high quality performance, and "street music" as inferior.
I think about participatory action research and other methods that are often positioned as unworthy, which is really problematic.
I also think about people who push back on this and think more expansively. It is nice to see books like Street Data come out to create greater access.
Radically reimagine our ways of being, learning, and doing Education can be transformed if we eradicate our fixation on big data like standardized test scores as the supreme measure of equity and learning. Instead of the focus being on "fixing" and "filling" academic gaps, we must envision and rebuild the system from the student up—with classrooms, schools and systems built around students’ brilliance, cultural wealth, and intellectual potential. Street data reminds us that what is measurable is not the same as what is valuable and that data can be humanizing, liberatory and healing. By breaking down street data fundamentals: what it is, how to gather it, and how it can complement other forms of data to guide a school or district’s equity journey, Safir and Dugan offer an actionable framework for school transformation. Written for educators and policymakers, this book  Offers fresh ideas and innovative tools to apply immediately · Provides an asset-based model to help educators look for what’s right in our students and communities instead of seeking what’s wrong · Explores a different application of data, from its capacity to help us diagnose root causes of inequity, to its potential to transform learning, and its power to reshape adult culture Now is the time to take an antiracist stance, interrogate our assumptions about knowledge, measurement, and what really matters when it comes to educating young people.
@ZingerLearns @TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I did not mean that classical music is better than other types. Just that if that is what one wants to be, one must invest an insane amount of work AND get the guidance of a good teacher. Same for world class athletes, glass blowers, astronauts...
@JorgeStolfi @ZingerLearns @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Didn't realise that NASA, ESA etc. don't pay those entering their trainee programme.
Glass blowers only get paid when they are masters of their art and can sell it. Well, back in the Medivial Age (they do get paid in Stockholm's Skansen, however...)
And it would be insane to be paid for training as a world class athlete.
Or while in in-service training. After all, you do it for yourself not your company, right?
@ZingerLearns @JorgeStolfi @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
This is what we observed with Germany's 50% rule (not allowed to earn more). When I was a PhD (2 decades ago), this boiled down to ~900€ (with 13th month salary), which is (was) enough for having a roof, food etc as a single. With kids, you had to rely on (grand)parents or welfare.
Inherited wealth determines now your academic chances.
@grimmiges @JorgeStolfi @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter this is definitely a central issue. The other piece is inside knowledge of how the system works. 25% of tenure track faculty have at least 1 parent with a Ph.D.
@grimmiges @ZingerLearns @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Again: a sensible STATE wants to have good researchers, just as it wants to have good MDs and engineers. That is why a sensible STATE pays students to sustain themselves while they TRAIN to become researchers. Just as a company that needs skilled employees MAY hire and pay trainees while they learn the needed skills. >>
@grimmiges @ZingerLearns @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
But the STATE also pays the universities and advisors to TRAIN the researchers that the state wants. Just as a company may pay instructors to teach their trainees. Because the univ and advisors are working FOR the students and/or the state. Not the other way around. >>
@JorgeStolfi @ZingerLearns @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Companies don't put you on unpaid leave while you're training. Neither do sports associations or the tax-financed space (or other) agencies.
Sorry. I fail to see what should be wrong with paying a young researcher a proper salary (+ soc. benef.) rather than to force working night-shifts in McDo or alike just because we also pay for the *further* education.
Which we contientals do. Socialists that we are (yet).
@ZingerLearns @JorgeStolfi @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
That's often the same on this side of the Great Pond, too. Although we're state-funded for the large part.
In fact, when Germany changed from our old (socialdemocratic) university system to the Anglosaxon bachelor-master, students were not seen anymore as future academics, researchers or scientists but as cattle. The more you process, the better.
@grimmiges @ZingerLearns @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
One difference between a PhD program and an employment is that when the student abandons the program without a decent excuse, he is often expected to return to the state any grant money that he received. Because the state did not "hire" him to do research work; it "contracted" him to make a researcher...
@ZingerLearns @TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
What do you mean by "participatory action research"?
@JorgeStolfi @ZingerLearns @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Things like this:
https://ecoevo.social/@lenzner/109665105993169485
RT @R_you_cereal I offer two fully funded, 4-year PhD positions in Prague. Macroecology, biodiversity science, ecological statistics, and remote sensing. Application deadline 15th Feb, starting date 1 Oct 2023. Details and instructions: https://petrkeil.github.io/news/2023/01/10/PhD_positions.html
@JorgeStolfi @TEG @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
PAR is probably used more in specific disciplines such as education. It positions participants, who in many traditions are viewed as "subjects" as active contributors and collaborators, viewed as people who can conduct research.
https://www.participatorymethods.org/glossary/participatory-action-research
PAR and YPAR (youth) often produce results that many in academia will marginalize.
One of my favorite examples of a YPAR project is this tree and work by Eve Tuck.
http://www.evetuck.com/problem-tree#:~:text=The%20problem%20tree%20is%20a%20useful%20approach%20to%20linking%20everyday,evident%20by%20their%20common%20roots.
Participatory Action Research (PAR) is an approach to enquiry which has been used since the 1940s. It involves researchers and participants working together to understand a problematic situation and change it for the better. There are many definitions of the approach, which share some common elements. PAR focuses on social change that promotes democracy and challenges inequality; is context-specific, often targeted on the needs of a particular group; is an iterative cycle of research, action and reflection; and often seeks to ‘liberate’ participants to have a greater awareness of their situation in order to take action. PAR uses a range of different methods, both qualitative and quantitative.
@JorgeStolfi @TEG @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Love to repeat myself, but there's no work for "HIM" during a modern-day PhD worth the name, i.e. being (linked to!!!) a research project [Not counting Dr. jur. or Dr. med. per se, there's a good reason, we differentiate our doctors in Germany.]
Researchers (humanities or STEM) don't make theses for THEM, we make them because we need it. It's not part of basic education but a further qualification. Like a German Meisterbrief.
@TEG @JorgeStolfi @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Exactly. It's too often just an exploit-win situation and not a win-win.
Anyone questioning that has simply no idea about the real world outside his bubble.
It naturally depends on the topic. In STEM, e.g., you start working (for others) as part of your master thesis (latest). But in law, economics or medicine (for becoming a doctor) it's school until you leave university.
@JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I think that the US adudience can relate to the issue by thinking it in terms of college football. If a college athlete wants to be paid, you don't say something like 'What? Should we also pay kindergarten kids for playing with balls now?' Because there is a very clear difference.
By the way, I also agree that high schools should provide their students with their basic necessities, but that is a whole different issue.
@SerhatTutkal @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Serhat, if you were already a fully competent researcher when you STARTED your PhD, so that you could have done the same research and publishing even without it, then you are a special case. The typical PhD student learns to do those things DURING the PhD, and would hardly be able to learn them outside of it.
Corporations pay people to attend trainings. Corporations train people on the job while paying them full wages.
You seem to be making a special case for graduate students.
@freyablekman @SerhatTutkal @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
"deserve a living wage, as does everyone"
One reason why PhD student grants are so low is that the relevant policymakers often fall, consciously or unconsciously, for a "market" approach.
Say they decide that the country must support N PhD students on astroentomology. If they set the grant pay to $X, and all N grants are taken, they will usually conclude that $X is quite enough. >>
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