David DunnettJan 2, 2023
Doug Gordon

For my own sanity — and as the unofficial moderator of The War on Cars account — I'm actively muting anyone who thinks "Not everyone can bike everywhere, you know" is a cogent argument against reducing car dependency.

I've taken the attitude of @notjustbikes to heart and simply don't have patience for it anymore.

Dec 26, 2022 at 9:00pmWeb
Show threadDoug GordonDec 26, 2022
I'm happy to have good-faith conversations with people who are new to this and who are genuinely curious about How It All Works, but those aren't the people I mean. The people who aren't worth my time anymore are those who reflexively argue that because biking (or transit or walkable/accessible neighborhoods) won't work for *everyone* it shouldn't work for *anyone.*
Show threadDoug GordonDec 26, 2022
It's one of the good things about switching to a new social media platform. I can dictate some of the terms of the conversations I'd like to engage in *before* things get out of control.
Show threadS Bodzin, Real American 🇺🇸Dec 26, 2022

@BrooklynSpoke or won't work for every possible moment in every life

Like dude the first 90% matters a lot more than the last 10%

Show threadDoug GordonDec 26, 2022
@stevenbodzin Exactly. "What are you going to do when it rains?" Um, any number of things!
Show threadS Bodzin, Real American 🇺🇸Dec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke those arguments are, in my experience, not about the words. They are self defenses by people who feel deeply guilty or at least conflicted about their life choices. That's the part that might be worth engaging with.
Show threadCodexNotFoundDec 26, 2022
@stevenbodzin @BrooklynSpoke and there is plenty of people who don't mind discussing things with them. But I understand that people with such a following don't want to take up discussions that are often hopeless.
Show threadJym Dyer 🚲🌎Dec 26, 2022

@stevenbodzin @BrooklynSpoke - I've wasted much time myself making good-faith responses to these arguments. More than a few times I've seen the same person bring up the same argument all over again, at which point the presumption of good faith falls apart.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I have this habit of archiving what I write, so I can tell them something like, "You already brought this up 2 years ago, I typed this reply to you then."

Show threadPascalDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @stevenbodzin sure sure but everyone isn’t sponsored by @cleverhood 😛
Show threadDoug GordonDec 26, 2022
@pascal I was gonna go with "Take the bus or a cab, it's fine!" But wear good rain gear works too!
Show threadPascalDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke yeah I got the official WOC Cleverhood and I love it
Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Dec 27, 2022
@stevenbodzin @BrooklynSpoke Yup - once we eliminate 90% of cars and car traffic, I'm going to swap sides and argue to preserve the last remnants of car accommodations, but that's a looooooong way away and we need to address the best majority of cases first.
Show threadLyle Solla-YatesDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke they have had an incredible run of good luck with policy priorities in North America for the last century. They’ll survive.
Show threadDavid AlpertDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke I’ve long wanted a pithy name for this “if it doesn’t work for everyone” fallacy since it comes up so much.
Show threadDoug GordonDec 27, 2022
@alpert All the time!
Show threadBenjamin RossDec 27, 2022
@alpert @BrooklynSpoke The point about narrative grooves is so reminiscent of media coverage of housing until the last couple of years, and still lingering somewhat now. The story was people vs developers and anything that didn't fit that framing didn't exist.
Show threadPascalDec 27, 2022
@alpert @BrooklynSpoke it’s called “you can’t please all of the ‘you can’t please all of the people all of the time’ people all of the time”
Show threadxanderstrikeDec 27, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke Part of carbrain is believing that you have to put 100% of your transportation investment into a single mode and that's the only one you're allowed to use. The idea of having a meaningful choice about how you get places is just beyond some people's understanding.
Show threadBørgeDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes Good! There has to be a limit to how long we have to explain the same, most simplest of facts. Maybe we need some sort of version of https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/, where we can link to a crowdsourced bedt possible reply to each of these simple, stupid arguments every time we see them, instead of having to type the same thing over and over and over...
Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies

A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning. Logical fallacies are like tricks or illusions of thought, and they're often very sneakily used by politicians and the media to fool people. Don't be fooled! This website has been designed to help you identify and call out dodgy logic wherever it may raise its ugly, incoherent head.

Show threadBørgeDec 26, 2022

@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes I might be interested in working on such a website/wiki, if others will join in and help!

First thing to do is gather a list of common arguments. I've started by asking on @FuckCarsReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/zvy4qj/what_are_the_most_common_and_stupid_arguments_you/ Feel free to chime in with more arguments there, and/or upvote for more people to see it :)

What are the most common and stupid arguments you hear about why we can't make cities less car dependent?

I'll start: "Not everyone can bike everywhere"

reddit
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Dec 26, 2022
@forteller @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes Can these people be reasoned with, though? They come into pedestrian streets and run your over, and you still feel like there's hope?

I may be rather naive, but personally I've only really encountered maybe three different categories of viewpoint:

A) "My car represents my freedom, and any criticism of cars is a personal attack on my freedom." I reckon there's no way to reason with these folks. We're just going to have to wait for them to go away.

B) "I am physically and / or systemically trapped, and my car is the only thing that enables me to participate in society, so I can't give it up." They don't disagree with us, but they also don't have the capacity to personally contribute to our ideals, so I don't suppose they need to be argued with.

C) Variation on B, which is "I'm already doing so many other things in other aspects of my life, I don't have the capacity to make adjustments in that part of my life as well." Like, the poor guy who is already rescuing animals and reducing waste and growing his own food and carrying an entire neighborhood on his back, running afterschool programs and coaching sports and spending all his holidays helping those in need, isn't the person I'm going to press hard on trading his electric car for an electric bike.

It seems to me like the kind of person who goes "oh, well, when you put it that way, I'd better get rid of my car, then" is exceptionally rare, and other than that we're just arguing with category A, which we already know aren't going to change their minds. Maybe I just haven't met enough people from category D? 🤷
Show threadSir ToastyJan 4, 2023
@eviloatmeal @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller
I'd argue that even the A group is smaller, and that those comments are more of a reaction to the inflammatory moralising attitude that tends to infect the commentary, and so suffer from the "you aren't wrong, you are just an asshole" effect.
Transport is a complex issue at a minimum, and so if someone in (mainly)B, or C, hears 'fuck cars, increase congestion' no wonder their reflexive response is 'wtf I need mine, and can't bike everywhere'
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Jan 4, 2023
@SirToasty @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller Sure. Yes, A is a very small, vocal minority (they just tend to drive very large-and-in-charge cars, so they are very visible and audible and noticeable, when they are). But my question is, who are we trying to reason with, if everyone falls into one of the categories A, or B / C, and everyone who could be convinced to give up their car lifestyle doesn't drive a car (anymore) in the first place?

I'm certainly naive about these things, but to me most of this discourse feels a lot like preaching to the choir.
Show threadSir ToastyJan 4, 2023
@eviloatmeal @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller My general go to depends on the person, but generally revolves around 1. Poor drivers generally don't like driving, getting them into other modes reduces the number of them, 2. If you have to drive, getting people who can take alternatives to do so means less congestion without months of construction. The idea being to change the attitude to supporting bike lanes/better transit even if they 'aren't going to use it'
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Jan 4, 2023
@SirToasty @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller But has that worked? Like have you gotten someone to stop driving?
Show threadSir ToastyJan 4, 2023

@eviloatmeal @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller
I feel that attitude is the problem, the goal isn't to 'stop people driving', the goal is to get support to build up alternatives so people don't have to.

Getting their support is more important because they have the numbers & so if it's a small group of pro-transit/bike people vs a large number of drivers they get listened to politically, getting their support even if they don't think it will benefit them individually helps shift the needle

Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Jan 4, 2023
@SirToasty @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller Ok, fair, yeah, I'm projecting a little. MY goal is to stop people driving, because they're killing people, people who aren't participating in the driving. Sure, that might be a problematic attitude, I don't deny this.
Show threadSir ToastyJan 4, 2023
@eviloatmeal @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller Think of it this way if you said to someone 'Electricity kills people we need blackouts so people use less electricity' they would generally write off your opinion on that topic even if you are technically correct, if someone isn't tuned into urban planning topics, saying 'cars kill we need congestion so people drive less' will get the same reaction.
Which to me is counterproductive vs giving them reasons to be pro-transit/bike infrastructure
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Jan 4, 2023
@SirToasty @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller Sure, I just don't know if I believe that this approach will do anything in particular in the timeframe of my lifetime, in the context of my opinions.

Like, the bike infrastructure is already there, there's just a bunch of carbrains using it to drive on. And the transit is already there, if you look in between all the cars.

But specifically in the context of the idea that it would be helpful to have a sort of playbook or digital pamphlet that addresses all the counter-arguments that people make. I guess if your goal is a very gradual change in which you co-exist with the car industry, which has infinitely more resources to argue against you, then yeah, this might be a worthwhile thing to spend time on. 🤔
Show threadSir ToastyJan 4, 2023
@eviloatmeal @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller The fact that people regularly point out that they don't use transit/bike infrastructure because of it's real or perceived negatives indicate it's not at the level it needs to be in most places to take mode share from cars.
Using phrases like 'carbrains' is what I referred to earlier, it doesn't matter if you are right, if people think you are insulting them they won't listen to you & in the worst case actively work against you.
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Jan 4, 2023
@SirToasty @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller I just feel like it's never going to "take mode share" because nobody is interested in "sharing". Or those who are interested keep getting figuratively and literally run over by people who are so attached to their car that they take any insinuation of alternative modes as a personal attack on them (vocal minority or not, they sure are doing a lot of work).

It's very frustrating coming from a place and an upbringing where drivers are as dangerous as they are, and I guess that makes me naive. Maybe my perspective can change on that, wherever I end up now that I'm moving.
Show threadSir ToastyJan 4, 2023
@eviloatmeal @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller
Just for clarity 'mode share' doesn't involve sharing, it's a reference that if you put all trips A-B on a pie chart/graph etc, separated by type Car/Bike/Walk/Transit, and how much each 'mode' has, its amount or 'share' of the total trips, so increasing the share of bikes would require decreasing the share of another mode like driving.
And you can take mode share from cars when you improve others to be as desirable to use, or more, than cars
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Jan 4, 2023
@SirToasty @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller Oh, I understood what you meant. But people who are being vocal about their right to drive are not interested in letting go of (or "sharing") any part of their majority share of "amount of total trips", and I'm not interested in them having any of it.
Show threadSir ToastyJan 4, 2023

@eviloatmeal @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller

Oh, so nothing to do with actually improving peoples ability to not need a car, just stereotyping a group and hating them, yeah I'm not interested in that.

Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Jan 4, 2023
@SirToasty @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @forteller Right. Something like that. Like I said, I've lived my whole life in a place where you don't need a car, but everyone drives one anyway. So my naive perspective is that the resources necessary to improve people's ability to not need a car already exist, if we just stopped putting them into subsiding cars and building car infrastructure.

I don't have any ill will toward people who drive cars in general. Like I said originally, it seems to me that most of them are simply stuck in a vicious cycle, and they know it. Whereas the ones who are speaking out against non-drivers don't seem to be doing so in good faith, which is why I wonder if debate is the right approach.

I harbor a lot of frustration from how I've lived until now. Hopefully I can change that. But it's hard to see past my feeling that (passenger) driving is categorically too dangerous and chaotic to be tolerated.
Show threadGene BlishenDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes These subtle statements are just a systemic cultural norm that puts cars above every other mode. That mode of travel is ‘normal’. What tires me is the unwritten subsidy cars hold on so many aspects of our daily lives. How much precious land is taken on roads and road expansion not only to travel but just to park on a side streets! #bikes
Show threaddr2chaseDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes
There seem to be many fewer of them here, at least so far, and that is with hardly any blocking at all. I heard a theory that starting predictable arguments was a technique used by professional troll accounts to make their accounts look more "real", so perhaps this will change in the future.
Show threadthebostonlolDec 27, 2022
@dr2chase @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes agreed, so many of those accounts on Twitter were brand new, had no photos and were @steve054884123 just paid troll army garbage there to degrade communication
Show threadMichael Smith🚎Dec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes I always ask what their solution is given that not everyone can drive. Should we therefore ban cars??
Show thread🚂Cameron🌐🥑🔰🏗️🌇🌮🚝 🦁🚲Dec 26, 2022

@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes NOT EVERYONE CAN DRIVE EITHER AHHH

and a world that's safe and welcoming to people on bike/foot works for people who use all kinds of mobility aids

Show threadHello57visDec 26, 2022

@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes

Please mute me
for several years, the way bike stans have expressed themselves has indeed seemed arrogant and out of touch, in that bike stans seem to imply that anyone SHOULD be riding in rain/snow

so yes, mute me cause you all are harming bicyling

Show threadLaura HoganDec 26, 2022
@Hello57 @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes Can do!
Show threadJym Dyer 🚲🌎Dec 26, 2022

@Hello57 @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes - Operative words there are "seemed" and "seems," which I would suggest is a subjective apprehension based on a foreground/background illusion.

Said background being that motoring has everything handed to it on a silver platter without asking, despite being at great expense and doing great damage, so that anyone asking for a crumb of that is arrogant! out of touch! and must be othered.

Show threadHello57visDec 26, 2022

@jym @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes

well, as they say in MiB III, we can agree to disagree, but I really think the tone of a lot of bike stan social media is arrogant
now it is true that after being pooped on for 50 years, you might be annoyed; I'll certainly grant you that

Show threadthebostonlolDec 27, 2022
@Hello57 @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes block #2 on the new platform! Congrats!
Show thread😀🚲Dec 27, 2022
@Hello57 @BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes most people aren't qualified to be operating a giant metal box in clear dry weather, let alone rain and snow. Arrogant would be thinking that the city's residents should accommodate the whim of car owners, or that "harming bicycling" was a possible result of calling out drivers who are wearing no pants.
Show threadGrimboJan 3, 2023
@Hello57 really? I see passionate people begging for safe non-car options. I don't see bike and walking people demand that everyone ditch their car. Rather the reverse.
Show threadRob ToftnessDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes this is where I'm at too. The "it doesn't work for me so it won't work for anyone" argument holds no water and is a waste of everyone's time
Show threadChris SilviaDec 26, 2022

@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes it's funny because "not everyone can bike everywhere" is true!

But it does NOT logically follow that "everyone should not bike anywhere" and "everyone should drive everywhere"

Show threadChris SilviaDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes
Show threadChris SilviaDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes furthermore the fewer people drive, the better the experience is for those who do...
Show threadLaura HoganDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes @veanova I mute anyone who says that walkable cities are “ableist.” I’ve muted a lot of people.
Show threadTiramDec 27, 2022
@holborne Whut? That's silly. Most disabled people I know would love walkable cities.
Show threadcarbon offsets are BS ☕️🥬Dec 26, 2022

@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes

I’d absolutely love to not be car dependent.

Taking a bike would turn a 15 minute commute into a 45 minute one though.

Public transport in my area would extend it even further.

I will continue to vote for policy change in this area.

Show threadThe Yarn HobbitDec 26, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes I wonder if a certain amount of it is that accessible biking is prohibitively expensive. We'd just got me sorted with a second hand electric handbike when the laws were changed & I could no longer use it on anywhere but private land.
With wheelchair bike attachments costing upwards of £3k, I'd honestly love a solution.
Show threadJym Dyer 🚲🌎Dec 26, 2022

@BrooklynSpoke - It always seemed to me that the All-Powerful Bike Lobby (Retired) handled this type of objection with just the right touch. Of course, we can't all be an All-Powerful Enterprise.

❝We will bring this up at our next meeting.❞
🐦 https://twitter.com/BicycleLobby/status/1568605626208591873

All-Powerful Bicycle Lobby (Retired) on Twitter

“We will bring this up at our next meeting.”

Twitter
Show threadMnGarden81Dec 27, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes and I can’t use my phillips screwdriver for Allen wrench heads.
Show threadPedroDec 27, 2022

@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes but what about the Elderly Grandma who's a mechanic that needs to drive to her doctor 1000 miles away, all while also doing plumbing work!?

Do you expect her to take the bus!?!?

Show threadEamonnDec 27, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes I usually tell them that not everyone can drive a car either.
Show threadChristian KuglerDec 27, 2022
@BrooklynSpoke I would love some advice how to deal with this argument in person – e.g. a relative. I usually go for „I want infrastructure for humans, @notjustbikes“ and that it will „make driving better as well“. But it is hard to convey how removing space for cars does this.
Show threadPhoto Ewen 📷Dec 27, 2022

@BrooklynSpoke @notjustbikes

I don't ride a bike because I'm a bit lazy – I prefer walking and PT. but I do own a car.

Seems to me that a real shift towards cycling in my city will also be great news for those times when I do need a car to get somewhere.