Roberto
Kees van der LeunEnergy crisis, winter 2022, Utrecht, the Netherlands: all patio heaters on outside, guests inside. Government spending tens of billions on energy subsidies, but who cares?
And it's not the only one. As recently as last month, @ELLEmagazine published 'the best places with outdoor heating in Amsterdam', apparently unconscious that this isn't a good thing in the middle of an energy war.
Kevin Karhan 
@Sustainable2050 *nodds in agreement*
I find this shit to be insulting to the world.
Just offer people some blankets...
bridgetmck@Sustainable2050 This is #EverydayEcocide (In Climate Museum UK we collect incidents of things like this, currently on Birdsite & FB, since 2016. We should seed this hashtag here too.)
Cornelius Traas@Sustainable2050 Is this place owned by #Putin sympathisers?
@theapplefarmer probably Putin-I- don't-carers, but that's basically the same thing.
Wenslauw@Sustainable2050 here in Gouda I have seen people sitting outside under heaters at freezing temperatures. Utterly bizarre.
BudgetDuurzaam@wenslauw @Sustainable2050 Nop that’s just physics; the radiating heat warms their body.
Menno@budgetduurzaam @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 whose body exactly? Nobody there. And if people were there, it would be incredibly inefficient.
@MennoWolff @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 In Utrecht there was nobody, but in Gouda there where people. This heating is just the same way efficient as heating the earth by the sun… But even is something is efficient, thus it not primary leads to less energy-use. Thats for heating, but also for electric cars, trains, even for (electric) bikes: Only the primary result of the use defines the efficienty.
@budgetduurzaam @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 wow, you've set the bar pretty low. Given that less than 0.00000004% of the sun's energy even reaches earth, that's not very efficient, I'd say.
So by comparison those terrace heaters are fairly efficient.
But the bottom line is: it's a total waste of energy. The vast majority of the heat generated is lost to the environment.
So by comparison those terrace heaters are fairly efficient.
But the bottom line is: it's a total waste of energy. The vast majority of the heat generated is lost to the environment.
@budgetduurzaam @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 the 2 or so percent (total guess) that doesn't go lost into the surroundings. What's your point?
@MennoWolff @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 These heaters are just the same sort of energywaste as many other kinds of ‘energy use’. It’s ok to critize these heaters, if you too critizise other kinds of energy waste. Why for example is it quit common to move a 1500kg car, to move just 80kg of freight? That costs a lot more energy ‘use’ than sitting warm on a terras in winter. Its just what you find important or it is use or waste… (e.g. surroundings radiate too, energy never gets lost 😜 ) >
@MennoWolff @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 > Besides: 15 people on a terrace in winter under an electric heater of 4kW, use less energy than 15 people individual on their couch in the best insulated homes you can imagen.
@budgetduurzaam @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 that's the point. Those heaters are usually on, regardless of how many people are under it. Plus, i doubt a 4kW heater would be able to make up to 15 people comfortable.
Get people inside. More people in the room means less heating needed.
Get people inside. More people in the room means less heating needed.
@MennoWolff @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 Even if it used twice the power; home alone costs most people > 0,5kW/h. So 15 people can use 7,5kW before spilling energy on heating the terrace together.
@budgetduurzaam @MennoWolff @wenslauw I regularly criticize other types of energy waste too, but I don't believe that's a precondition.
@Sustainable2050 @MennoWolff @wenslauw I agree it’s not the most efficent use of energy. But it is a minor lost of energy compared to (for example) the common daily spilling of kenetic energy and heat of trains,. planes and car-use. The radiationheating is a relative efficient heating method especialy in this curcumstances and compared with convectionheating. And if we had to critizise every heating in spaces where nobody sits… in 10 minutes the terrace can be full.
@budgetduurzaam @Sustainable2050 @wenslauw point taken. So emphasize that, and not the efficiency.
Plus, you can't turn off the heating every time someone leaves a room, but you could simply turn off the radiation heaters depending on demand.
Plus, you can't turn off the heating every time someone leaves a room, but you could simply turn off the radiation heaters depending on demand.
@MennoWolff @Sustainable2050 @wenslauw Yeah. But why is it on? It costs lots of money. So there must be a purpose or a reason. This is nothing else than many other ‘enerrgy-use’ like driving cars, flying, shopping, heating our house and office; there is some kind of social or economical ’reality’ that ‘forces’ us for using/spilling energy. Is it use or is it waste? Thats the question.
@budgetduurzaam @Sustainable2050 @wenslauw
Well, OP considers it a waste. So do I. You're right, there's a lot of invisible waste, like leaving the heating on in rooms hardly anyone enters, but this in my view is a visible waste of energy.
Some suggested banning the practice, but i think that's too strict, but cutie could enforce that they are turned off if nobody is using them.
Well, OP considers it a waste. So do I. You're right, there's a lot of invisible waste, like leaving the heating on in rooms hardly anyone enters, but this in my view is a visible waste of energy.
Some suggested banning the practice, but i think that's too strict, but cutie could enforce that they are turned off if nobody is using them.
Stip ⚫️@Sustainable2050 Die dingen zouden verboden moeten worden. Net als winkels met de deuren open. Sowieso kunnen we 'dankzij' klimaatverandering inmiddels een maand of twee langer buiten zitten dan in mijn jeugd en zó oud ben ik nu ook weer niet 😊
Determinerik 
🇵🇸@Sustainable2050 we definitely need to ban those things
martin lentink 🇪🇺 🇺🇦📎
jiltIt's this stupidity that makes a lot of politicians and businessmen to tell us that 'we need to scale up coal now.' 😣
hester ijsseling@Sustainable2050 high time to throw some soup
Rik 
🇵🇸 
@Sustainable2050 Ridiculous
Rene@Sustainable2050
Smoking ban caused this in the first place...
Smoking ban caused this in the first place...
@Sustainable2050 So this is why you never should subsidize energy use (nor energy production), but only should set a large tax on CO2.
Jürgen Voskuhl 
@Sustainable2050 Not limited to the Netherlands by the way: spotted the same thing a week ago in Frankfurt, Germany.
peter sabaini@Sustainable2050 in Austria subsidies were made conditional on turning these off but apparently enforcement is lax so they're running anyway...
Subsidies were a mistake in the first place
Subsidies were a mistake in the first place
Michiel@Sustainable2050 “But we must increase the prices of consumptions to account for increased costs!!” 🤦♂️
Marcos M. 🚲@Sustainable2050 This is madness.
PólóInconsistent policies. Outside heated places are good. They are the only venue where I meet friends to dine. However masking advice/mandates are woefully inadequate. It's the latter that needs changing
PS: love Utrecht
https://photopol.com/utrecht/utrecht.html
Leo van Lierop@Sustainable2050 We need to shame those places!!!
Guillotine@Sustainable2050 Almost as if the Netherlands don't care if they can stay above water anymore.
Sean Blakey@Sustainable2050 @astrojuanlu the pandemic is still going, so outdoor dining would be safer ... but why keep all the heaters on when nobody is using them?
Marcel Kolder@Sustainable2050 so many really stupid people in this world.
Jan Trompert
Gerrit 🇪🇺🌍🍉🔻The winter 2022 situation, with some wasting heat by the tens of kWh daily outside, wile others feared even turning the heating on at home, illustrates quite nicely the problem with the neoliberal idea of market knows best.
The actions by the government trying to solve the problem at the last mile, were woefully inefficient, most of the wins actually landed at the energy companies while people still on fixed lowrates had no saving incentive at all.
What should have been done was taking the bought in long term energy to all contracts and for the moment abolish the freedom of having a long term or short term contract, making a general temporary contract.
Then everyone would have felt a saving incentive alike, as it should have been. Hedging against war was never the normal calculation of long term contracts and we should not have acted as though it was so.
Fixing at the end of pipe was expensive and inadequate.