Kees van der LeunEnergy crisis, winter 2022, Utrecht, the Netherlands: all patio heaters on outside, guests inside. Government spending tens of billions on energy subsidies, but who cares?
Wenslauw@Sustainable2050 here in Gouda I have seen people sitting outside under heaters at freezing temperatures. Utterly bizarre.
BudgetDuurzaam@wenslauw @Sustainable2050 Nop that’s just physics; the radiating heat warms their body.
Menno@budgetduurzaam @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 whose body exactly? Nobody there. And if people were there, it would be incredibly inefficient.
@MennoWolff @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 In Utrecht there was nobody, but in Gouda there where people. This heating is just the same way efficient as heating the earth by the sun… But even is something is efficient, thus it not primary leads to less energy-use. Thats for heating, but also for electric cars, trains, even for (electric) bikes: Only the primary result of the use defines the efficienty.
@budgetduurzaam @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 wow, you've set the bar pretty low. Given that less than 0.00000004% of the sun's energy even reaches earth, that's not very efficient, I'd say.
So by comparison those terrace heaters are fairly efficient.
But the bottom line is: it's a total waste of energy. The vast majority of the heat generated is lost to the environment.
So by comparison those terrace heaters are fairly efficient.
But the bottom line is: it's a total waste of energy. The vast majority of the heat generated is lost to the environment.
@budgetduurzaam @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 the 2 or so percent (total guess) that doesn't go lost into the surroundings. What's your point?
@MennoWolff @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 These heaters are just the same sort of energywaste as many other kinds of ‘energy use’. It’s ok to critize these heaters, if you too critizise other kinds of energy waste. Why for example is it quit common to move a 1500kg car, to move just 80kg of freight? That costs a lot more energy ‘use’ than sitting warm on a terras in winter. Its just what you find important or it is use or waste… (e.g. surroundings radiate too, energy never gets lost 😜 ) >
@MennoWolff @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 > Besides: 15 people on a terrace in winter under an electric heater of 4kW, use less energy than 15 people individual on their couch in the best insulated homes you can imagen.
@budgetduurzaam @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 that's the point. Those heaters are usually on, regardless of how many people are under it. Plus, i doubt a 4kW heater would be able to make up to 15 people comfortable.
Get people inside. More people in the room means less heating needed.
Get people inside. More people in the room means less heating needed.
@MennoWolff @wenslauw @Sustainable2050 Even if it used twice the power; home alone costs most people > 0,5kW/h. So 15 people can use 7,5kW before spilling energy on heating the terrace together.
@budgetduurzaam @MennoWolff @wenslauw I regularly criticize other types of energy waste too, but I don't believe that's a precondition.
@Sustainable2050 @MennoWolff @wenslauw I agree it’s not the most efficent use of energy. But it is a minor lost of energy compared to (for example) the common daily spilling of kenetic energy and heat of trains,. planes and car-use. The radiationheating is a relative efficient heating method especialy in this curcumstances and compared with convectionheating. And if we had to critizise every heating in spaces where nobody sits… in 10 minutes the terrace can be full.
@budgetduurzaam @Sustainable2050 @wenslauw point taken. So emphasize that, and not the efficiency.
Plus, you can't turn off the heating every time someone leaves a room, but you could simply turn off the radiation heaters depending on demand.
Plus, you can't turn off the heating every time someone leaves a room, but you could simply turn off the radiation heaters depending on demand.
@MennoWolff @Sustainable2050 @wenslauw Yeah. But why is it on? It costs lots of money. So there must be a purpose or a reason. This is nothing else than many other ‘enerrgy-use’ like driving cars, flying, shopping, heating our house and office; there is some kind of social or economical ’reality’ that ‘forces’ us for using/spilling energy. Is it use or is it waste? Thats the question.
@budgetduurzaam @Sustainable2050 @wenslauw
Well, OP considers it a waste. So do I. You're right, there's a lot of invisible waste, like leaving the heating on in rooms hardly anyone enters, but this in my view is a visible waste of energy.
Some suggested banning the practice, but i think that's too strict, but cutie could enforce that they are turned off if nobody is using them.
Well, OP considers it a waste. So do I. You're right, there's a lot of invisible waste, like leaving the heating on in rooms hardly anyone enters, but this in my view is a visible waste of energy.
Some suggested banning the practice, but i think that's too strict, but cutie could enforce that they are turned off if nobody is using them.