Jon_Jon
Taylor LorenzJournalists will never stick around this app long term sadly unless it adds quote posting. We desperately need it to communicate effectively, build on each others ideas, and add crucial context to posts. These are things replies simply do not accomplish. Also quote posting or reblogging does not = harassment! Tumblr, for instance, has had the feature since the beginning. We need it here now too 🙏🏻
Long Truong @taylorlorenz quote posting is available with alternative server software! I wish more people knew this
@Lxtruong I’m dumb how does this work? I’m on the app and I don’t see a way to do it and everything shows as links there’s not even link previews 😰
rootless@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong which app? I’ve used two (Mastodon and Toot!) plus the web app, and am about to try a third.
@rootless @taylorlorenz here is my answer and example. Basically it's a server side thing right now. Maybe there will be an app that renders it with Mastodon but I'm unaware of one that does it.
RE: https://i.calckey.cloud/notes/994oo646qk
RE: https://i.calckey.cloud/notes/994oo646qk
soletan 🇺🇦🐸@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @rootless Alas, this way you are causing extra load for those people who have to moderate trends on their instances for they have to check your post AND that link.
Apart from that: I don't follow this discussion fulltime, but what I am missing are some reasons given for why e.g. journalists need quoting in a similar way Gargron explained why he decided not to have it aboard. I keep reading, that quoting is essential to you guys w/o ever explaining why.
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @rootless Stating that quoting e.g. is creating "crucial context" to a post or quoting is for effective communication, this is still fuzzy to me and sounds like reasons given for the sake of discussing, only. We have discussion timelines. If you respond, how is this lacking context to your post? If those timelines don't work, let's talk about that first. But with those in mind I don't see the benefit of quoting.
@soletan @taylorlorenz @rootless
To me the benefits of QTing are self evident, it provides immediate context. Look in your email inbox and find the last forwarded email you received. Now imagine if the sender had just forwarded the email with no additional input and the followed up with a separate email discussing the forwarded email. It'd be way harder to read! You'd constantly have to open one and then the other to understand the discussion! If you're unlucky, another email will come in at the wrong time and slip inbteween making things even more confusing!
To me the benefits of QTing are self evident, it provides immediate context. Look in your email inbox and find the last forwarded email you received. Now imagine if the sender had just forwarded the email with no additional input and the followed up with a separate email discussing the forwarded email. It'd be way harder to read! You'd constantly have to open one and then the other to understand the discussion! If you're unlucky, another email will come in at the wrong time and slip inbteween making things even more confusing!
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @soletan the thing I want to get to is along these lines—ignoring the feature itself, what are you really trying to do? In this telling, draw attention to something and make a comment (establish the object of the comment so that you can make the comment)
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @rootless My email inbox features thread view for it rather safely matches related mails even if they lack referencing each other. OTOH, I don't look into those tails of endless replies that come with every new mail either. Quoting in context of MICROblogging seems to be quite redundant in many ways.
What if you boost, then reply? The original post and your reply would appear in your account's timeline. On clicking either post, no new but unrelated posts disturb, too.
@soletan @taylorlorenz @rootless
Boost then reply don't work as well as quote replying if for no reason other than there is no guarantee that they will show up in sequential order in your followers feed. If another post slips in between, it's less confusing.
See the attached example where a person is translating a non-English post. If you boost then translate AND some George Takei post slips in between, that'd be incomprehensible!
attached is an example of context where a boost then reply would not work. Poster is translating another post.
Boost then reply don't work as well as quote replying if for no reason other than there is no guarantee that they will show up in sequential order in your followers feed. If another post slips in between, it's less confusing.
See the attached example where a person is translating a non-English post. If you boost then translate AND some George Takei post slips in between, that'd be incomprehensible!
attached is an example of context where a boost then reply would not work. Poster is translating another post.
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @rootless If you click on the reply, it will be rendered separately from any post that isn't related to it. It might even show you the original post someone was replying to. And if you click on that original post, you'll get it with more replies to it. Nothing's disturbing there ...
@soletan @taylorlorenz @rootless how would you know to click through? Could just be her tagging Takei in a post or replying to a post. Are we supposed to click through every post?
Look it's not like it's literally impossible to figure out life without quote toots, but I think you're just fooling yourself if you're pretending that a boost+reply is equivalent no extra work has the same information as a QT. It's just not so.
Look it's not like it's literally impossible to figure out life without quote toots, but I think you're just fooling yourself if you're pretending that a boost+reply is equivalent no extra work has the same information as a QT. It's just not so.
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @rootless As a SW developer I'm sure that you hardly find two users of the same application that actually use it in the same way but ask for different features to achieve the same purpose. I don't think it's about fooling oneself. It's about whether software has to bend for the user or vice versa. We might disagree on that one, too. IMHO Mastodon isn't Twitter but serves the same purpose in a different way. As users we could adapt to that.
1/3
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @rootless For example, MacOS doesn't require start menu just because I am familiar with it as a long term Windows user. However, I can use both systems to send and receive mails, browse the web, write documents, create software, print stuff, whatever. I don't expect anyone to consider adding a feature that's missing in either eco system if the ultimate argument is "It's just (not) so." Then, I'm neither fooling myself nor feeling convinced in a rational way.
2/3
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @rootless Finally, that's not my decision to make at all. I really hope you are getting that feature, though I doubt it is coming anytime soon. Maybe, the community discussion is going to shift the bias on it some day enabling keen code contributors to provide a patch for that feature.
3/3
calc.exe@rootless @taylorlorenz @Lxtruong it's not an app, it's an entirely different type of instance. Go to https://i.calckey.cloud for an example :)
Darnell Clayton 
@thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong #Calckey looks very similar to #MissKey. Was that intentional‽
@Lxtruong @thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless Okay, that makes more sense. I actually like #MissKey & almost used it as my main account. The lack of official iOS & iPadOS apps is why I chose #Mastodon over MissKey & even #Pleroma.
@darnell @thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless lack of apps is definitely a downside for calckey, but I mean using a mobile web page isn't the end of the world, I guess
@Lxtruong @thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless I do not mind a web page, but if I am out “in the wild” traveling, having an app is convenient, especially if signal is wonky (I do not lose the whole post if it temporarily goes offline).
@thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong Progressive Web Apps are interesting, but what happens when you lose signal mid upload, or the browser crashes‽
Some browsers like Chrome have a restore tab mode on iOS/iPadOS, but it is not always perfect. Native Apps can simply save a local draft & reupload later on. It’s why I have always preferred them over Progressive Web Apps.
Zergling_man@darnell @Lxtruong @rootless @taylorlorenz @thatonecalculator I hear terrible web browser opinions.
The objectively correct stance is: If it doesn't work in lynx, it needs fixing.
The objectively correct stance is: If it doesn't work in lynx, it needs fixing.
@Zergling_man @Lxtruong @rootless @taylorlorenz @thatonecalculator I am just relaying real world experiences. I can not carry a computer or even my iPad everywhere, but have a local draft saved when signal cuts out for minuets (or hours) with media (pictures & video) is very helpful.
@darnell @thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong Yes. You sound like you do not have terrible browser opinions.
@Zergling_man @Lxtruong @rootless @taylorlorenz @thatonecalculator It’s more of a signal issue than a browser issue. You can have the worlds best browser but without signal it’s useless.
I have experienced this numerous times before too. Sometimes bad weather weather or location (especially inside buildings with lots of metal & concrete) can cut off signal without notice. Not very fun but it does happen.
@darnell @[email protected] @Lxtruong @rootless @taylorlorenz well that's the issue for you, I will agree that Calckey is inaccessible on minimalist browsers that don't have certain browser API support like Lynx -- but it also breaks a lot of other sites for them
@darnell @thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong The world's best browser has suitable caching and verification so any requests that fail in transit get repeated to exactly the extent necessary.
And I'd still rather use a dedicated, proper client for any regular haunts, because I want to choose my UI for myself instead of fighting against whatever rubbish the server wants to force on me.
And I'd still rather use a dedicated, proper client for any regular haunts, because I want to choose my UI for myself instead of fighting against whatever rubbish the server wants to force on me.
@[email protected] @darnell @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong and that's totally fair. I'm in big support of desktop and mobile clients, that's why I'm super hyped for Kaiteki! It's built in flutter so it works basically everywhere :)
@[email protected] @Lxtruong @rootless @taylorlorenz @darnell yeah but it's good flutter not bad flutter. It's easy to write bad flutter code, so that's why it gets a bad rep.
@darnell @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong The Calckey PWA saves your drafts in LocalStorage on your browser, so yes drafts are safe in case of a crash or signal loss.
@thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong Question: if the browser crashes, would I lose my data‽
@darnell @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong
so yes drafts are safe in case of a crash or signal loss.A browser crash won't wipe your data, almost everything important is written to LocalStorage :)@thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong 👍🏾 That is good to know.
Does this apply to all data‽
I am not sure about live streaming (native apps from my experience do a better job handling this), but what about uploading HD video & audio when signal gets cut off‽ Would it try to reupload later on when signal reconnects without having to login, or would it just get borked‽ I also wonder editing shared office documents too.
@darnell @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong that's the only thing that won't work -- if you lose signal, you'll need to redo media uploads.
@thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong Yeah that sucks. Sometimes I need to upload video/images/etcetera, & the signal is not always the best at work.
Same when I travel too.
@darnell
@Lxtruong
@rootless
@taylorlorenz the good news is you can upload them to your drive before posting. Calckey has an integrated cloud storage feature built right in 🎉
@Lxtruong
@rootless
@taylorlorenz the good news is you can upload them to your drive before posting. Calckey has an integrated cloud storage feature built right in 🎉
@thatonecalculator @taylorlorenz @rootless @Lxtruong Yeah, cloud services have been a life saver! Google Cloud & iCloud are popular amongst the masses. I wish #NextCloud gained some traction, but people look at me like I have a third head if I mention it.
Heh! It took me years to convince my bosses to ditch Internet Explorer! Now, every approved browser is Chromium based (Brave, Google Chrome, Internet Explorer).
@darnell
@Lxtruong
@rootless
@taylorlorenz Calckey's cloud is a little more basic than NC/GD/etc, but you can upload any file at any time, change the name and whatnot and make folders :)
@Lxtruong
@rootless
@taylorlorenz Calckey's cloud is a little more basic than NC/GD/etc, but you can upload any file at any time, change the name and whatnot and make folders :)
Oops uou might not see my example bc you were tagged. It's here https://i.calckey.cloud/notes/994oo646qk
Dr Pieter Peach@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz are there native client apps with this functionality?
@PieterPeach @taylorlorenz I'm unaware of any. There are other things deliberately unavailable in Mastodon (toot level text searches) that are available in other compatible software as well.
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz this text level search (outside of your own posts) would presumably require servers to allow scraping and indexing? My understanding this is not consensus behaviour
@Lxtruong @PieterPeach oh wow you can’t even search the text of toots posted on Mastodon? That also seems like a huge issue for journalists seeking to use this platform. I’m sure there are reasons why but dang
@taylorlorenz @PieterPeach well I heard that Washington post is putting up a server so you should tell them you want a server that has this instead of Mastodon!
Alim Jiwa@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach it’s to minimize trolling. Like the bottom line is, this isn’t Twitter and works the way it does for a reason.
@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong search is limited to hashtags intentionally, but again, there may be a way to allow indexing of your content with permission (I think some of this opt-in functionality for search engine visibility already exists). It’s about making a safer environment that allows engagement with an open network, but on a user’s own terms on how their data and content is used.
Brandon Kraft ❤️🔥🧡@PieterPeach @taylorlorenz @Lxtruong instance owners can add Elasticsearch which would allow for full-text indexing and search for federated posts known to the instance.
There's a financial cost so if you're on an instance that some method to recoup costs, I'd reckon more easy to add.
@kraft @PieterPeach @taylorlorenz this is key right. Search is limited WITHIN Mastodon servers but there is nothing preventing non-Masto servers from searching Mastodon toots. As shown by the screenshot above. It's really only a halfway measure at best imo
@kraft @PieterPeach @taylorlorenz and it absolutely does not require opt-in. As of right now the only way to avoid it is to deferderate from every non Mastodon server
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @PieterPeach nod. I don't know the intentions of the Mastodon developers but the search functionality now seems totally a technical limitation. Kinda like search on a WordPress site. By default it is horrible because of lack of full index in MySQL for the posts.
Throw on ES and it's a ton better. Just with the added work, cost, maintenance of ES being on the server now.
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @kraft Here are some post visibility options below. Do these have any impact on search indexing?
@PieterPeach @taylorlorenz @kraft direct posts wouldn't show up on my server, so that definitely would have an affect. Every public post is likely searchable. Unknown about the other two
Reach for the Stars 
When you hit post the text goes off to your local instance that has to decide what to do with it. If it is Public it will be sent to every instance where someone follows your account as well as the instances of account you have tagged (e.g. if you respond to a post). Your post will also be added to your local feed and the Federated feed of each instance.
Unlisted is a request not to put a post in the news feeds. It goes to all the same placed as public, but doesn't end up places like Home, Local, or Federated (a nice thing to do for posts that only make sense as part of the thread they are in)
Followers asks that servers only make the post available to people who follow you. In conjunction with locked accounts this gives some measure of control, but you are dependent on the good faith of other instances for this privacy.
Direct is just like any other post, but it is sent only to the server of the recipient(s) with instructions to share it only with those users. Again you are totally dependent on the good faith of the instances to honor this request.
Some instances like mine also have a Local option which not let the post go beyond your local instance. If you have a local instance that is a safe space for you, you can use Local visibility and know that only people on your own safe instance will ever see it.