Taylor LorenzJournalists will never stick around this app long term sadly unless it adds quote posting. We desperately need it to communicate effectively, build on each others ideas, and add crucial context to posts. These are things replies simply do not accomplish. Also quote posting or reblogging does not = harassment! Tumblr, for instance, has had the feature since the beginning. We need it here now too 🙏🏻
Long Truong @taylorlorenz quote posting is available with alternative server software! I wish more people knew this
@Lxtruong I’m dumb how does this work? I’m on the app and I don’t see a way to do it and everything shows as links there’s not even link previews 😰
Oops uou might not see my example bc you were tagged. It's here https://i.calckey.cloud/notes/994oo646qk
Dr Pieter Peach@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz are there native client apps with this functionality?
@PieterPeach @taylorlorenz I'm unaware of any. There are other things deliberately unavailable in Mastodon (toot level text searches) that are available in other compatible software as well.
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz this text level search (outside of your own posts) would presumably require servers to allow scraping and indexing? My understanding this is not consensus behaviour
@Lxtruong @PieterPeach oh wow you can’t even search the text of toots posted on Mastodon? That also seems like a huge issue for journalists seeking to use this platform. I’m sure there are reasons why but dang
@taylorlorenz @PieterPeach well I heard that Washington post is putting up a server so you should tell them you want a server that has this instead of Mastodon!
Alim Jiwa@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach it’s to minimize trolling. Like the bottom line is, this isn’t Twitter and works the way it does for a reason.
@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong search is limited to hashtags intentionally, but again, there may be a way to allow indexing of your content with permission (I think some of this opt-in functionality for search engine visibility already exists). It’s about making a safer environment that allows engagement with an open network, but on a user’s own terms on how their data and content is used.
Brandon Kraft ❤️🔥🧡@PieterPeach @taylorlorenz @Lxtruong instance owners can add Elasticsearch which would allow for full-text indexing and search for federated posts known to the instance.
There's a financial cost so if you're on an instance that some method to recoup costs, I'd reckon more easy to add.
@kraft @PieterPeach @taylorlorenz this is key right. Search is limited WITHIN Mastodon servers but there is nothing preventing non-Masto servers from searching Mastodon toots. As shown by the screenshot above. It's really only a halfway measure at best imo
@kraft @PieterPeach @taylorlorenz and it absolutely does not require opt-in. As of right now the only way to avoid it is to deferderate from every non Mastodon server
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @PieterPeach nod. I don't know the intentions of the Mastodon developers but the search functionality now seems totally a technical limitation. Kinda like search on a WordPress site. By default it is horrible because of lack of full index in MySQL for the posts.
Throw on ES and it's a ton better. Just with the added work, cost, maintenance of ES being on the server now.
@Lxtruong @taylorlorenz @kraft Here are some post visibility options below. Do these have any impact on search indexing?
@PieterPeach @taylorlorenz @kraft direct posts wouldn't show up on my server, so that definitely would have an affect. Every public post is likely searchable. Unknown about the other two
Reach for the Stars 
When you hit post the text goes off to your local instance that has to decide what to do with it. If it is Public it will be sent to every instance where someone follows your account as well as the instances of account you have tagged (e.g. if you respond to a post). Your post will also be added to your local feed and the Federated feed of each instance.
Unlisted is a request not to put a post in the news feeds. It goes to all the same placed as public, but doesn't end up places like Home, Local, or Federated (a nice thing to do for posts that only make sense as part of the thread they are in)
Followers asks that servers only make the post available to people who follow you. In conjunction with locked accounts this gives some measure of control, but you are dependent on the good faith of other instances for this privacy.
Direct is just like any other post, but it is sent only to the server of the recipient(s) with instructions to share it only with those users. Again you are totally dependent on the good faith of the instances to honor this request.
Some instances like mine also have a Local option which not let the post go beyond your local instance. If you have a local instance that is a safe space for you, you can use Local visibility and know that only people on your own safe instance will ever see it.
Darnell Clayton 
Jonah Stein@PieterPeach @taylorlorenz @Lxtruong You can use the site: search command to search across an instance or a user as long as they allow google to index.
The query would look like this: site:https://mastodon.social/@taylorlorenz
@taylorlorenz Remember the history of Mastodon. It was not built in the face of Musk buying twitter. It was built by people who could not be on Twitter safely even when Jack was in charge. Decisions like no text search and no reblogging were in specific responses to the abusive behavior that led Mastodon's creators to do the hard work of setting up an alternative in the first place.
These pre-April 2022 users who still own the majority of large instances and are the active developers of the software did not want a place for Journalists - many would have found the prying and data aggregation journalist do on social media exceedingly distasteful.
unless things change Mastodon will never have the broadcast vibes of Twitter which emphasized views and interactions. This social network emphasizes the building of direct relationships and to use it successfully you need to be ready to spend far more social capital developing trust and reputation then the equivalent Twitter account.
Twitter under Jack Dorsey really catered to journalists and politicians because they brought in lots of views, and it became a great place to not only put out a story, but to develop one as well. Mastodon was designed by people who didn't want their social media interactions on the front page of the New York Times. For that reason, I suspect that journalists, news makers, and politicians will remain on Twitter in spite of Elon Musk. They are to Twitter what live sports has become to cable TV - the one use that a new technology cannot easily disrupt.
Boaz Barak@antares @taylorlorenz it would be good if some instances could offer a setting that allows user to opt in to having all their toots indexable by Google and searchable. Would be very useful for technical instances like the one run by @thegradient
@boazbaraktcs Perhaps it would be, but right now such an instance would likely fine itself broadly defederated.
There is history here. A message board called Kiwi Farms developed search tools for the fediverse with the stated intent of finding and harassing LGBT people. Prior to the twitter migration it was probably the most impactful thing to occur in the fediverse. Any instance found to be using Kiwi Farms indexing tools was quickly and aggressively defederated and even instances that federated with those instances were targeted. (Full disclosure: the instance this account uses Qoto.org falls into the latter category and is still on a lot of default block lists)
I'm not saying it will never happen. The project is open source and if there is enough demand someone will write the code. Given the recent history, I would not expect the large legacy instances to change in the near future.
ML2@antares @boazbaraktcs It's entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that the federated platform of the future will not be Mastodon, but something else using ActivityPub, and if so, this will be one of the reasons for that.
@antares it should definitely IMO be something that users need to opt into, and such an instance would only allow search and indexing of its own toots .
If an instance is mostly for technical content - talking about papers , research results and such - then enabling full text search makes a lot of sense
JohnW@boazbaraktcs @antares This is a very good idea.
Instances developed outside the lines of the normal Mastodon format could come with warnings letting users permit/not permit interactions with those particular instances.
Collin Donnell@boazbaraktcs @antares Yes. This. I wanted to look up what other people were using for a programming related tool and there’s just no way to do it.
Mazal 
@antares @boazbaraktcs
oh, wow. i'm aware of Kiwi Farms and their aggressive harm. This is a great #usecase of how #Mastodon is being built and for whom.
setting up shop here is like marrying into a family—there's history! learn it.
as opposed to star gazing at celebrities on the bird site—and pining for attention and an autograph.
ChicletI believe the glitch-soc fork allows an opt-in to search engine indexing.
The reactionary instances should not be able to pressure other instances to be as closed as they want for themselves.
Braw ☕🏳️🌈@boazbaraktcs this is already a thing, all your public tweets are indexable unless you go to https://sigmoid.social/settings/preferences/other and opt out of that.
@brawaru @taylorlorenz @antares @thegradient Then I must have misunderstood this https://sigmoid.social/@thegradient/109561375493849154
The Gradient (@[email protected])
@boazbaraktcs @[email protected] full text search actually is enabled on this instance! You can't search through all posts, but you can search from all posts you made, favorites, or bookmarked - https://docs.joinmastodon.org/admin/optional/elasticsearch/
The Gradient@boazbaraktcs @brawaru @taylorlorenz @antares text search as a feature of Mastodon is different from being indexable for search on Google - there is indeed a setting for the latter.
Ryan Moulton@thegradient @boazbaraktcs @brawaru @taylorlorenz @antares How so I turn that on so search engines can index it? Is it on by default?
@moultano @boazbaraktcs @brawaru @taylorlorenz @antares in the web UI it's under preferences/other. Phone apps might not have it.
@antares @taylorlorenz One could technically use a Google Search too (I think Google is indexing Mastodon servers without permission now).
@darnell 🤨 A a lot of instances you cannot even see the local timeline unless you are logged in. I would be shocked if Google was not honoring the robots.txt. If it was indexing like you claim it would be very easy to discover through server logs and there were be a lot of instance admins shitting bricks and looking for the fastest technical solutions to block such indexing.
@antares Yeah, but it’s Google. I would not be surprised if others like Facebook were crawling Mastodon links as well (I assume they do but I could be wrong).
Marty Crabneck 🌍
@marty_crabneck @antares Well, test this out. Type in a random word (like carrots 🥕) & the domain of an instance. See what posts come up.
william.maggosI want the fedi to appeal to journalism but with decentralization.
Max Riethmuller (TechLife)@antares @taylorlorenz I think it's important this past experience not be rode roughshod over in the rush to emulate Twitter on Mastodon. I think an instance of even a whole different activitypub base platform for journalism would be a great idea. With a way for all users of federated platforms able to view, comment and follow the news but still be protected within their own platforms. Instances or platforms shouldn't be obligated to share all with everyone.
@techlife If I had to take my guess I suspect that we will start to see branches off the main line of the standard mastodon server software implementing these features. Mine, for example already allow quoting. There will be community backlash and a lot of instances will block instances running non-conforming branches. I suspect that we will end up with a blobby fediverse with one well connected group of instances that took the moderation maximalist course, another well connected group that went down the path of building a Twitter replacement, and a few large servers in the middle that don't have the twitter-like features but don't block other instances who do.
This already kind of happens with servers that have a liberal policy on graphic sexual images. (Pawoo[dot]net is one of these and has been in the news of late because it was bought by a for profit company.) They all federate with each other. Most instances block these on site, some few don't allow adult content but don't stop their users from following people on servers who do.
@antares sounds plausible.
@antares the whole thing is in flux and evolution. What I'm hoping for, and I think it's a reasonable hope, is that we will get a bunch of different platforms running off activitypub, with some really big platforms and many smaller platforms, with improved network transparency but retention of the ability of instances to choose who they can connect to.
@antares @taylorlorenz I gotta say though it's really exciting that there's movement on breaking free from discrete isolated centralised (within themselves) platforms. I'm watching all this with deep interest.
RuralTechie@antares @taylorlorenz thank you for this! very enlightening to those of us who do want to read and interact, but who also have few followers and thus, little voice in the midst of the noise.
Hello57vishonestly, the great twitter migration is wildly overblown
most of these people won't be active here, or will go back
that is my guess
pizzapal@antares @taylorlorenz phpbb for teh win
Astrid
івась тарасик@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach twitterfolk trying to make fediverse into another twitter.
facepalm. no. please, just no.
@tivasyk @taylorlorenz @PieterPeach this is nonsense. Eugen doesn't get to pick for the entire fediverse. There are legitimate reasons why you'd want to QT or search!
Alex Schrank@tivasyk @taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach I really can’t say I understand the idea of deliberately not adding features to a service because a subset of users wouldn’t like them. Isn’t the whole point of this place that you can choose an instance that aligns with your values? Just join an instance that has quote posting turned off or something.
Peter Butler@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach Yes, this is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, blockers. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
@peterbutler @taylorlorenz @PieterPeach if Eugen won't allow Mastodon to do it then people who want QT and search will move to servers that have it. Or leave ActivityPub altogether.
Michael Gisiger 
@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach I see more and more Masto posts in my Google searches? And what if it's indeed a feature not a bug? To prevent people from monetizing other people's posts f.ex.
@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach
It might be a fundamental misunderstanding of the fediverse. And also how people now say Mastodon for everything fediverse.
Mastodon is a specific type of instance, there's also Pleroma and Misskey and many others.
It's like Linux. Debian vs. Fedora as the two primary roots, but both are Linux. With some OpenSuse and BSD flavors.
Open Source looks more like Darwin's Origin of Species charts with all sorts of forking, derivation, evolution and ancestry.
All work together and you might not know that so many people reside on instances using these variants.
There are ActivityPub versions that work seamlessly with other Mastodon instances.
@taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach You should ask the #WashingtonPost to activate #ElasticSearch on their future #Mastodon server which will provide searchable texts across that specific instance.
don Elías (como los buses) 🥨@darnell @taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach I think that would include all posts from other instances that the server with ES knows, right?
Marc Widmann 👍@taylorlorenz @pallenberg @Lxtruong @PieterPeach Hi Tailor. Design principles of @Gargron and why they have decided to do it the way it is build.
And here is the quoting feature: https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/99662106175542726
And here is the quoting feature: https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/99662106175542726
Sascha Pallenberg 🇹🇼 ♻️ ⚡@marcwidmann @taylorlorenz @Lxtruong @PieterPeach @Gargron and I think it was a really wise choice back then but please, let's be nice to each other.
Taylor raised a valid point which Eugen basically replied to already back then. All good imho
@marcwidmann @taylorlorenz @pallenberg @PieterPeach @Gargron HI Marc. This worries me. Tailor joined Mastodon a month ago, not in 2016. I would expect a project manager to have better reading skills before hammering on someone who was just expressing a difference in opinion regarding the way Mastodon is designed.
Also a link, even if there is a short preview, is not a QT.
Also a link, even if there is a short preview, is not a QT.
@marcwidmann @Gargron @taylorlorenz @pallenberg @PieterPeach welp that's true my web client gave me wrong information.
Doesn't mean that you weren't being a condescending jerk tho.
Doesn't mean that you weren't being a condescending jerk tho.
@Lxtruong please can we all just be nice here. I am serious. We can have different opinions but let us please have a civilized conversation. Thx @Gargron @taylorlorenz @PieterPeach @marcwidmann