Taylor LorenzPeople who are talking as if reblogging is what leads to harassment need to understand that abuse happens *far more* often in replies. Does that mean u shoudjnt be able to reply to people? No, it means we need controls! As far as I’m aware there’s no way to limit replies on Mastodon or filter them. Would love for more controls like that to be added. Threading on replies wouod help a lot too imo.
It’s also worth noting that a huge problem on Twitter was the way the feed algorithm optimized for attention and outrage. Mastodon doesn’t have that, so it’s impossible to replicate a similar dynamic on here because of the way this platform is currently structured (which I think is a very good thing!)
Sometimes you want to go viral, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you want feedback on a post, sometimes you don’t. Part of meeting the needs of a wide user base (which should be the goal!) is allowing for customization. Facebook and other platforms allow a user to change the privacy settings on a post level, both after and before the post is published, and I think that’s great!
I’m gonna try to tap out of this convo now, but thank you to all the smart people who have shared their thoughts on these issues in my replies! The fact that so many Mastodon devs and users consider potential for abuse when implementing new feature right out of the gate is HUGE. Hope everyone has a happy and relaxing holiday 💓
A_very_undistinguished_person@taylorlorenz may your holiday be awesome. Thanks for raising such a great topic.
Allan Chow@taylorlorenz hope your holiday gets relaxing!
Kevin Porter@taylorlorenz It’s an important topic and a conversation that’s well worth having. I’ve been reading through a lot of the comments, and I’ve appreciated seeing everyone’s perspectives. Thank you for initiating and participating in the discussion, the community is better off for it and we are all better off having you here. Keep doing what you do best!
Edwin G.@taylorlorenz Happy Holidays 🎄 to you as well.
mʕ•ﻌ•ʔm bitPickupCan you rephrase that?
I don't get what you try to say.
Gregg@bitpickup @taylorlorenz
Mastodon is what you get when corporate's ethos isn't "move fast break things".
Here, features are carefully thought of and widely discussed with users' safety in mind before implementation.
Mastodon is what you get when corporate's ethos isn't "move fast break things".
Here, features are carefully thought of and widely discussed with users' safety in mind before implementation.
was that your opinion or did you rephrase for Taylor?
Ben Ptacek@taylorlorenz this is it… this is the problem. We (as an open community) cannot just shut down these new/old ideas. I think we need to solve together. Devs, if you don’t listen to your users, then you will be the same voice as the controller that has the money. Is that the goal?!?! I don’t think it is.
a8e@taylorlorenz Wonderful to see free open source software alive and kicking. This is the spirit, that anyone can contribute, be it with adding ideas or writing code. Keep it up!
Cypher@taylorlorenz@mastodon.socia Don't let me drag you back in, but there are two federated (allowing connection to other instances) forks to the mastodon code that has search and quoting enabled
https://misskey-hub.net/en/docs/misskey.html
https://docs.akkoma.dev/stable/#what-is-akkoma
My suggestion is to look into both of these and see if they fix your issues. I really want to see newsrooms create their own fedi instances. Let us know what you think if you do look into them!
Enjoy the rest of the holidays!
Kapis✌@taylorlorenz @cspcypher That is the best solution, actually few clients support quoting and that patch for Mastodon too.
Here is an image example of intercomunication between an instance running calckey(that supports it) and my Mastodon: https://social.anartist.org/@4w4@animalesenfu.ga/109633054639694081
I believe the #whashingtonpost has enough budget and skills to launch its own #activitypub instance to satisfy most of their #journalist's needs.
@taylorlorenz Nice to meet you . I am from Virginia. I love the Washington Post.
Escarpment@taylorlorenz I think customization will turn out to be the answer here. Add a switch per instance or perhaps per account to allow or disallow quote posts. End of debate, or perhaps, if it's per instance, start of lobbying your admin to flip the switch.
Shoq@taylorlorenz Funny you mention that. I was just writing up a spec for exactly that. I hadn't considered changing the visibility after the fact, but I will now. Thanks for mentioning it.
@shoq thank u for the work you’re doing! 💓
LadyUnicornEJG@taylorlorenz you can control if it's public or not, just not replies separate from visibility. Here's the options via tusky.
@ladyunicornejg ahh thank you, yes I’d love to control the replies specifically but yes! This sort of audience segmentation is awesome imo, thank you! 💓
Doc Edward Morbius ⭕@taylorlorenz The challenge with "followers only" is that if you have unrestricted follows, then ... the protection offered is pretty thin. A hostile actor could simply follow your profile.
I've long had mixed feelings on that setting. I'd rather it were restricted to a set of profiles I'd specifically selected myself.
Brian Hawthorne@dredmorbius @taylorlorenz @ladyunicornejg I’ve never really considered that Followers Only is any kind of protection at all. I just figured that there are some things that would likely not be of interest to the whole world, but that people who are weird enough to follow me might find cool. And those are the things I use it for. I’m not trying to protect myself from having others see them. I’m trying to protect them from having to scroll past my drivel!
@dredmorbius @taylorlorenz @ladyunicornejg Basically, I use it to reduce engagement from people who aren’t used to me.
@bhawthorne That's my general use.
In practice, I use it very rarely myself.
@bhawthorne I see people who seem to use it that way.
One thing that really bothers me is that the scope of replies to Followers Only is not the followers of the initial toot, but of the follow-up toot.
For people discussing personal matters and such, whom I know well enough to respond, I'll preferentially reply with a DM (which opens a whole 'nother can of worms), as what I say to them discloses both their conversation and any context visible from my own.
This is where the post/comment format of sites such as Diaspora*, Google+ (RIP), FB, etc., makes more sense: the conversational scope of the entire thread is that of the parent post itself.
I don't recommend Mastodon for anyone requiring robust tradecraft.
Shatter Ⓥ 𓅃Personal "allow RT?" setting would completly end the argument.
Make it a per post choice even better.
@taylorlorenz In fairness, however, many people don’t want to go viral.
I want to have interesting conversations without being harassed by people who appear to have extremely poor anger control. Going viral isn’t conducive to that.
So being able to control quotes would be very important to me.
I want to have interesting conversations without being harassed by people who appear to have extremely poor anger control. Going viral isn’t conducive to that.
So being able to control quotes would be very important to me.
Sriram "sri" Ramkrishna - 😼@taylorlorenz So, to address that I usually let's say in this thread I can set the visibility to "unlisted" which allows only people to see within this thread vs everyone seeing it on the local/federated timelines. Does that help?
@sri Not "unlisted", but "followers only".
"Unlisted" only keeps the toot off public timelines, and makes #hashtags unseachable.
That second is IMO a huge misfeature. Hashtags should be searchable by those within the posting context.
(Diaspora* works that way, and it's quite useful.)
Since I'm posting this as "unlisted", the hashtag above won't appear within a hashtag search.
herid@taylorlorenz exactly. btw on twitter posts from private accounts can't be RTed or QTed. Mastodon could certainly use such feature too but with more granular control than that.
Timo Grün@taylorlorenz
As new guests here and immigrants it behooves us to take some time to get to know the new country and to figure out what it is that makes it so pleasant. Mere civility would indicate that, instead of rushing in and demanding that our new hosts change the laws of their land to match those of the that which we have just fled, to take refuge here.
As new guests here and immigrants it behooves us to take some time to get to know the new country and to figure out what it is that makes it so pleasant. Mere civility would indicate that, instead of rushing in and demanding that our new hosts change the laws of their land to match those of the that which we have just fled, to take refuge here.
Dirk Hohndel@taylorlorenz
of course the problem here is enforcement.
Because you can de-facto already quote-toot, it just takes a little effort.
Take a screen shot, add the text of the toot as alternate text to the image, then tag the original author (and everyone they tagged) in your toot, add a link to the original toot, and add your commentary.
A client could easily automate that - and I don’t think in the federated world you as the author could actually PREVENT that…
Very different 1/2
of course the problem here is enforcement.
Because you can de-facto already quote-toot, it just takes a little effort.
Take a screen shot, add the text of the toot as alternate text to the image, then tag the original author (and everyone they tagged) in your toot, add a link to the original toot, and add your commentary.
A client could easily automate that - and I don’t think in the federated world you as the author could actually PREVENT that…
Very different 1/2
@taylorlorenz … in a centralized service like Facebook or Twitter… so the real question is how would we work on a federated system that encourages the behavior that we want to see (respecting the tag / customization) 2/2
@dirkhh yeah good points!
Bender Wilson@taylorlorenz federated AF💯 finna start saying that instead of Based AF 💪
Phillip Hallam-Baker@taylorlorenz What I don't understand about this Quote Toot argument is that a large fraction of toots are actually posting links to content offsite.
So what is the difference between dunking on Tucker 'Fascist boy' Carlson via a toot and using a Quote Toot?
Special K@taylorlorenz Edit the privacy of toots through the Edit feature, totally in ! And Lists should be improved as well (add an account not in your followings - for News bots for ex).
Sharoney ✍🏻 📰 📻 💻 🎙️@taylorlorenz That's come in handy, especially when posting about politics and dealing with some family members or business associates who might take offense.
seedsinputinspocket@taylorlorenz And sometimes people don't want to go viral because someone else QT-ed them.
Will Allen@taylorlorenz don't have the first clue how the mechanics of any of this work, but as someone migrating from MetaZuckBook, that's something I definitely miss. I suppose I can learn to live with everything being the same. But I like being able to send my goofy jokes and music videos and such just to my friends who know me and can read it in my voice.
heffa@taylorlorenz re: “meeting the needs of a wide user base (which should be the goal!)”
I don’t agree that meeting the needs of a wide user base SHOULD be the goal, mostly because of the size of the user base may not be every developer’s or user’s concern. These platforms have a way of evolving beyond the original developers’ intent. Perhaps we newcomers are foisting expansion onto this thing as part of gentrification.
I don’t agree that meeting the needs of a wide user base SHOULD be the goal, mostly because of the size of the user base may not be every developer’s or user’s concern. These platforms have a way of evolving beyond the original developers’ intent. Perhaps we newcomers are foisting expansion onto this thing as part of gentrification.
@taylorlorenz some times you feel like a nut….
Some times you don’t…….
Some times you don’t…….
Stefan@taylorlorenz excited for the future! We'll get there!
Chris Pirillo@taylorlorenz ...it's the difference between optimizing for attention and optimizing for value.
@ChrisPirillo @taylorlorenz Totally, cool thing is you don’t even need to optimize for value. Humans just naturally do that. Social media algorithms have been designed in a way that derails normal human interaction.
sparseMatrix ✅✅✅ 📻It's one way that technology is part of the solution here in the #fediverse
Lee Fife@taylorlorenz
IMHO, this was the fundamental problem w/ QT on birdsite.
Engagement maximizing algorithm selects for rage and pushes angry interactions to the top. Many of which used QT.
It's different here . And we should be able to build a reblogging / quote-post capability that gives people control *and* fosters conversation.
IMHO, this was the fundamental problem w/ QT on birdsite.
Engagement maximizing algorithm selects for rage and pushes angry interactions to the top. Many of which used QT.
It's different here . And we should be able to build a reblogging / quote-post capability that gives people control *and* fosters conversation.
@colo_lee exactly! Every major social platform (Facebook, LinkedIn, Tumblr, Nextdoor, etc) has a reshare with comment feature for a reason. As a journalist I find the feature essential for sharing and contextualizing news, others use it to build on each other’s thoughts and share important info. Twitter has a lot of issues, but no need to throw a highly useful feature out with the bath water! We just need to make sure we give people the option to customize their own experience
nadin brzezinskiHere, you can do this with, for example, Toot for IOS
Lee Fife (@colo_lee@universeodon.com)
@taylorlorenz@mastodon.social IMHO, this was the fundamental problem w/ QT on birdsite. Engagement maximizing algorithm selects for rage and pushes angry interactions to the top. Many of which used QT. It's different here . And we should be able to build a reblogging / quote-post capability that gives people control *and* fosters conversation.
@Nadinabbott @taylorlorenz
yes, we can quote client side like you did and I often do.
But it has problems:
* no link preview : the link to my post just sits there. No indication of what it's about
* Crossing instance boundaries. Click the link, can't interact.
* and most important, because this all happens client-side, I have no ability to control who can quote my posts. Which can lead to what @annaleen called "nonconsensual virality", the heart of a pile-on.
Annalee Newitz (@annaleen@wandering.shop)
Let me put a phrase into your mind: nonconsensual virality. It's why quote-posts on Twitter led to harassment. People's words stolen, taken out of context, used purely to incite a mob of griefers. The answer is to give #Mastodon users control over whether someone else can quote-post them, with a simple "quote or not" setting that can be set before or after the post goes up. We should be allowed to stop people from taking our posts viral without our consent.
@colo_lee @taylorlorenz @annaleen of course, that is one of the things that needs fixing. And brutal, it was abused on bird site. That is a reality. One of the things behind gamer gate.
beevo@taylorlorenz here is less about rage farming and wasp nests, and more people being more authentically engaging.
toxtethogrady@taylorlorenz Part of the reason I ended up getting thrown off Twitter was because I was more than willing to engage with adversaries who replied to me. The usual result of those engagements was after seeing they couldn't win the argument, they'd block me and I'd never see them again. When Musk took over, all those people got favored and eventually I got removed permanently. I've not encountered anyone like that here...
David MacDonald 
@taylorlorenz This is such an important point that cannot (or at least _should not_) be separated from the QT issue. There are technological tools for allowing reblogs in a way that doesn't invite the level of toxicity we saw on Twitter.
Highest Love Manifest Now@taylorlorenz Yes, I am finding also that this platform doesn’t assault my nervous system like twitter did. It feels much smoother.
Tjandamurra@taylorlorenz So do I. I'm enjoying reading the toots, linking with so many wonderful people, seeing awesome photos of places I'll never visit and learning so much. Seasons greetings to everyone.
Kote Isaev@taylorlorenz
Regarding "go viral" vs "do not want replies", until more detail controls available, this switch can be used:
By selecting "followers only" or "mentioned people only" post visiblity, audience can be narrowed very much. The "Unlisted" is like "Show this post only on my server, hide it from guest feed & public Explore view".
Regarding "go viral" vs "do not want replies", until more detail controls available, this switch can be used:
By selecting "followers only" or "mentioned people only" post visiblity, audience can be narrowed very much. The "Unlisted" is like "Show this post only on my server, hide it from guest feed & public Explore view".
@koteisaev FYI, that's an inaccurate description of "unlisted".
An Unlisted toot:
- Will appear in your follower's feeds.
- If boosted by any of your followers, will appear in their follower's feeds.
- Will appear to anyone who directly navigates to the thread.
- Will appear to anyone who directly navigates to your own profile page (presuming they scroll far enough).
An unlisted toot will NOT appear:
- On your instance's public feed, or the "Federated" feed of any other instance (assuming those instances follow protocol).
- In any hashtag search for a #hashtag included in the toot. (You can test that with this, unlisted, toot.)
Mike Leech@taylorlorenz yeah. This is really nice with people here and all but it's not been very exciting to me. The sad reality is sometimes I want to zing back and forth comebacks in real time .Maybe 12 years of Twitter affected me as well.
@taylorlorenz Before you get too attached to the view that "it can't happen here", you might want to look into the situation that emerged around Wil Wheaton in August 2018.
Wheaton was hounded off Mastodon by a group of griefers who'd followed him from Twitter. Bad handling by the moderator of WilW's instance contributed to that, but part of the problem was in fact an organised group hounding a specific individual.
Mastodon / Fediverse tools and practices have changed somewhat in the meantime, but the risk still exists, and you'll hear from many disadvantaged groups and individuals (e.g., #BlackMastodon) that the threat is real and present.