Fred

It’s unfortunate that, in an effort to avoid the supposed mistakes of Twitter, Mastodon has descended into a navel-gazing debate about.. avoiding the mistakes of Twitter.

Arguing over QT’s and search feels like it’s missing the forest for the trees: toxic behaviors and communities originate from a complex mix of norms, moderation (or lack thereof) and product affordances.

It’s never going to boil down to just a set of product features.

Dec 24, 2022 at 2:20pmWeb
Show threadFredDec 24, 2022
That said, one thing I have noticed about Mastodon’s choices is that by hiding like and reply counts from the main feed (at least on my server, lol), it encourages more exploration of posts. I find myself clicking into more things and trying to make sense of threads I might have otherwise skipped. On the whole this makes it more difficult to slip into “heat seeking mode” where you’re just trawling for the juiciest content.
Show threadFredDec 24, 2022

Of course once everyone is talking about the same thing then it cancels out whatever the product affordances might have offered: you find yourself wanting to be part of the conversation so you tailor your posts accordingly.

These dynamics have existed since the dawn of the net, so it’s pretty naive to think some UI tweaks are going to alter human nature online.

Show threadPomegranate County IrregularsDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson I don’t have an opinion on the features debate. I do think this from experiences, interfaces involve choices and necessarily create efficiencies and frictions. These frictions will impede some aspects of human behavior, good and bad. I suspect quoting does help journalism and progressives and also increases the possibility of recreating the context-free—sometimes fabricated—look-at-this! rage-du-jour. Though, something being harder does not mean it can’t be done.
Show threadJesseDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson I've noticed that so many arguments seem based on the assumption that we can find ideal initial conditions that will leave whatever-it-is on a positive glide path forever. All of longtermism, the left critique of social democracy that capital will always claw back the welfare state, any argument citing a "slippery slope"... everyone always wants to set it and forget it. Not saying all these positions are meritless, just noting the tendency.
Show threadFredDec 24, 2022

@misc I could not agree more! People want shortcuts. I saw this at Kickstarter too: the drive to be a PBC felt like it originated from the founders wanting to be able to eventually step away from the company and have it run itself in the most ethical possible way while in other people’s hands.

The reality is that leadership is dynamic and can’t be conditioned on a fixed set of rules, the world is too weird and interesting for that. Entropy.

Show threadLeon BambrickDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson -- this is true. And I use reply then boost for a mastodon appropriate set of steps. *That* (which is different to birb soot's QT) is worth aliasing as QT -- or QRT (quote reply tOOt)
Show threadJudi SohnDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson @stefan You know you can easily take what you don’t want to see out of your feed, right?
Show threadFredDec 24, 2022
@judisohn @stefan it’s not that I don’t want to / can’t tolerate seeing this content, it’s more that I find the debate over features vs. community vs. openness fascinating and probably intractable
Show threadPaul H (he/him)Dec 24, 2022
@judisohn @fredbenenson @stefan yes and no. You can really only control *who* you see, not *what* you see. And this whole debate is apparently a hill some people are willing to die on and will simply block others for the act of disagreeing. So, the feature itself is almost enabling toxicity, which I guess is an interesting corollary about claiming a feature is inherently good or bad. I'm anti-QT, but will admit my view has evolved (hasn't changed) quite a bit on it.
Show threadJudi SohnDec 24, 2022
@pjhenry1216 @fredbenenson @stefan You can set up filters for excluding content as well as people… I have a few set for topics that annoy me the most. No point in letting it get to me. Only winning move is not to play. ;-) https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moderating/
Dealing with unwanted content - Mastodon documentation

Control what you see, for a more comfortable social media experience.

Show threadPaul H (he/him)Dec 24, 2022
@judisohn @fredbenenson @stefan that's good to know, as I wasn't aware of it. It's far from perfect, but I'm at a loss to suggest anything better.
Show threadDr. FyzziksDec 24, 2022

@fredbenenson agreed on all but one of the points: Mastodon hasn't really descended into a navel-gazing debate. A small but vocal group of people here definitely have, for sure. But when I look at my pretty active timeline over the past 2 days, I'd say the debate makes up maybe 8-10% of the posts, *at most*.

Everybody else is just posting typical stuff, and not really complaining about QT/lack of QT/missing Twitter.

Hmm...

Show threadVidar Hokstad / Galaxy BoundDec 24, 2022

@fredbenenson To me it showcases that a *lot* of people don't understand either the power dynamics of the Fediverse or the tech. 1. it's not Mastodon, even if Mastodon has the most mindshare right now. 2. users can move instances or use alternative interfaces.

Between those two, a whole lot of features only becomes a choice for the former two as long as they don't inconvenience any group of users too much.

This ties into your point in that learning to compromise and establish workable
1/2

Show threadVidar Hokstad / Galaxy BoundDec 24, 2022

@fredbenenson .. norms for both how to address toxic behaviours, and for how features that may or may not enable or amplify them is the only way to work.

Because for most of these feared features, there's no *technical* way to stop the "bad guys" from getting those features and weaponizing them.

Our *only* means of addressing it is a culture of finding countermeasures to abuse (be they social or tech, or both).

Show threadJonathan BuckDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson so right
Show threadNancy M RuffDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson Then why change what appears to be working?
Show threadiraDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson well said
Show threadRobert ThauDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson Of particular note: people getting dogpiled for wanting features which the mob deemed problematic because ... they might trigger mobs engaging in dogpiles.
Show threadFredDec 24, 2022
@rst humans being human despite the tech!
Show threadcaitpDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson You aren't wrong that it's complex, but the QT thing is definitely weaponized to spread sensationalized news, and kind of incentivizes reporting which can spread via hate clicks, in addition to individual "indluencers" who do the same thing. technically they _can_ be used for good, but I don't think it's a stretch to say they are often harmful
Show threadLilian EdwardsDec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson at the risk of gazing at navel gazing , in my neck of the woods I don't think the QT debate is about creating Twitter toxicity - cos I agree w you that feature is not the cause - but abt difficulties of forking the code & annoying the natives. But broadly I agree
Show thread/G\echlin63🔻🔺☸️🕉️🌿Dec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson encrypted DM’s. That would be a good add
Show threadFredDec 24, 2022
@Gechlin63 it’s too bad they can’t piggyback on Signal
Show thread/G\echlin63🔻🔺☸️🕉️🌿Dec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson Yes, I guess that it is equally a problem on Twitter, now that Mr. Irrational is running it and seems to be capable of outing the DM's of anybody who ever used the platform if he cares to.
Show thread/G\echlin63🔻🔺☸️🕉️🌿Dec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson Direct messages on Counter.Social are encrypted for Pro users (people who pay $5 per month). Some nice features over there. More limited user base, but they're a fun crowd
Show thread/G\echlin63🔻🔺☸️🕉️🌿Dec 24, 2022
@fredbenenson of course, we’re only going on @th3j35t3r’s say so on the encryption for DM’s I guess
Show threadthepoisontartDec 25, 2022

@fredbenenson what I have noticed in my over 20 years on the internet is that the lower the barrier to entry, the noisier the discourse. It's quite easy to download an app and get on Twitter - no invite code or wait list necessary - and start spewing the garbagé du jour.

Yes, that is an accessibility issue and I don't like it. But people being assholes is why we can't have nice things.