Mastodawn

Bishop Dec 20, 2022

Eniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)

I'm about to make saying "build a community not an audience" a blockable offense. Some people need an audience to keep a roof over their head and food on the table, and it's the only option for many marginalized people who aren't able to be gainfully employed in society due to bigotry or lack of support. What do you want them to do, just starve because a fascist burned down their only means of generating income?

And why the hell are you letting brands own the word "audience" anyway, and pretending it's some dirty thing now? The arts have used that word respectfully for centuries, long before brands came around

I'm sorry I keep posting about this but as a working slash often starving artist the mastodon interaction purity police is really starting to get to me

Eniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)Dec 20, 2022

Especially stop this if you are a cis straight white dude who works in tech and as a democratic party operative who's never had to worry about food on the table your entire goddamn life

EDIT: IMPORTANT NOTE: if you're a butthurt reply guy please note i am describing the dude I am subtweeting directly, I am describing a *specific person*

Eniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)Dec 20, 2022

Just. Fucking stop. Let people engage with the fediverse however they want *or need* to. Jesus

Eniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)Dec 20, 2022

Like, my god. A whole class of creative people are biting their nails fearing for their literal lives because a fascist just burned down the only means of generating income they have and in some cases the only means of generating income that /society will afford them/ and they're coming here exhausted and terrified and instead of warmly welcoming them in you're going tut tut and telling them they're doing survival wrong. Just. FUCK

Luke Davies Dec 20, 2022

@eniko there is a bit of a "oh but this is our commune" or the good ole "OSS should never be used for profit" vibe isn't there

Eniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)Dec 20, 2022

@candyleader no doubt by a bunch of white dudes who have a day job with a nice juicy paycheck

Luke Davies Dec 20, 2022

@eniko I am in that extremely privileged position myself which means I am mostly on here (and the old place) to be sold things, sell me your things!

Shari Emerson Dec 20, 2022

@candyleader @eniko

honestly, if you want followers, no better words have ever been spoken 😆

A lot of artists, myself included, are going to try to find the most graceful way we can to restart, rebrand, recalibrate our efforts to FIND, and share with an audience, and hopefully win fans.

Support from voices like yours is heartening.✨

PJ "Vote Green" Coffey Dec 20, 2022

@candyleader @eniko Would you like a dry technical manual to help you create species and Cultures with mechanical meaning, compatible with the 5th edition of D&D? 😀

Failing that, do you like books, shiny things, art? I believe that's all categories of things anyone could want. 😉

dr 🛠️🛰️📡🎧

blobfoxcomputer

@eniko @candyleader The people telling artists to "quit spamming" are the same ones telling #BlackMastodon they can "just block anyone you don't like".

Meanwhile I'm over here having to dm an artist I really liked because she didn't have a store anywhere I could find.

Hit me with those links, peeps! I can buy scented candles from local craftspeople any time, I want something different from artists in my timeline!

AnthonyUplandpoetWatkins Dec 20, 2022

@davidr @eniko @candyleader

well, im an artist with nothing for sale, but i agree. just dont follow artists if you dont like art! i enjoy the beautiful images and photos and poems and thoughts (i could do with a little less of the trite motivational quotes and religious comments, but if it gets to be too much, i simply block them), that fill my page!

Aby & the Axolotls ꒰(˶• ᴗ •˶)꒱Dec 20, 2022

@davidr @eniko @candyleader - yes, and the irony being that they won't 'just block' the way they tell others to.

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader Early on here I saw what looked like an interesting server & started following. Realized pretty quickly that they were REALLY AGGRESSIVE about defederation - & about ADVOCATING FOR WIDESPREAD DEFEDERATION - of WHOLE INSTANCES that didn't meet their local community standards.

& it was stuff like this! Like artists, writers, etc trying to put their art out there.

Basically saying: "The Fediverse is not a blog & you shouldn't try to make it one."

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader
...left out the part where they defederated me. I didn't post on their threads & didn't repost them (they hated that, & I respected their wishes) - but I did say things like 'the number of users is gonna increase by multiples & they will not share the current aesthetic, & current users are going to have to deal with that.'

FWIW Eugen said shit like that, too, but they can't defederate him.

Michael Coorlim Dec 20, 2022

@FeralRobots @aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader "the Fediverse is not a blog" is ironic because that's the primary way that a creative professional can build an audience here.

Without paid marketing options and algorithms "good content" is really the only way to build a following; your posts just won't get in front of eyes otherwise. This is a framework in which the soft sell is going to be the most effective means of gaining traction.

Aby & the Axolotls ꒰(˶• ᴗ •˶)꒱Dec 20, 2022

@mcoorlim @FeralRobots @davidr @eniko @candyleader - algorithms and paid marketing options don't exist on other platforms for these sorts of creators, though. They exist for huge companies.. an author or a dice maker (for example) can't afford to pay to advertise on twitter and the algorithm definitely doesn't exist to promote them.

Michael Coorlim Dec 20, 2022

@aby @FeralRobots @davidr @eniko @candyleader very true! As a small fish you need to come at them sideways, swim in the wake to torture the metaphore, and make a cludge of it.

Small fry marketing on Twitter was a culture of a decade and a half of these hacks, ways to survive and thrive in that particular environment.

I'm awful at marketing but I survived for a decade by making the least mistakes I could.

Michael Coorlim Dec 20, 2022

@aby @FeralRobots @davidr @eniko @candyleader ultimately Twitter was designed as a platform to serve potential consumer to advertisers, and we were able to kind of come along for the ride by exploiting the quirks of its algorithms.

For a lot of people, this is the only social media marketing they've known, the weird twitter life-hacks.

These hacks are not endemic to all platforms, and may not be effective elsewhere.

Leonard Stolas Dec 20, 2022

@FeralRobots @aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader
LOL. Those people are going to be in for a rude awakening when Tumblr implements ActivityPub, aren't they?

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@leonardstolas @aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader
Was that in Matt M's big interview that's been floating around? Interesting! That might bode well also for better support in WordPress!

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader
I wrote that quickly & should have followed up to explain my comment about blogging. It wasn't anything anybody actually said - it was how I interpreted it, having been a serious blogger for years.

The point of blogging was that you could say whatever you wanted, & there were tools to bring your stuff to the attention of others.

That took me to seeing a lot of folks' attitude around here as being that Masto is more like a message board.

https://mastodon.social/@FeralRobots/109547461739680179

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader

Ultimately Mastodon does need better curation tools - & better tools for controlling how your own content is used, yes, but if you're going to make your writing public, it's always going to be possible for someone to misuse your writing.

IOW, it's not going to have controls like you'd have on a message board.

There are probably ways to control content misuse, but I don't know them yet. (Someone I follow does block sharing, which I hadn't known one could do.)

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader
It seems to me one CAN make Mastodon behave like a message board, hiding posts from people not specifically authorized to see them. (I don't yet understand how secure the posts are when they get transmitted to subscribers on other instances.)

Much to figure out, & now (when work requires me to do a lot of stuff in two other systems that're relatively new to me) is not the time it's going to happen.

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader
I lied, of course I can't let go now that I'm thinking about it - many of my questions about security seem to be addressed in the linked doc - particularly, white list mode seems to be how you might federate with carefully selected partners.

https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2019/10/mastodon-3.0-in-depth/

Mastodon 3.0 in-depth

Detailed notes on REST API changes, new deployment options, new admin settings and how to use them

Official Mastodon Blog

Ian Ramjohn Dec 20, 2022

@FeralRobots @aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader

"The Fediverse is not a blog & you shouldn't try to make it one."

WordPress is part of the fediverse. WordPress is blogging software. This is a paradox.

FeralRobots Dec 21, 2022

@iramjohn @aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader
To expand what I said on followup that was arguably a non-charitable interpretation of the message they were sending.

That said, the folks I'm talking about did generally say 'fediverse' when they really seemed to mean 'Mastodon ecosystem.'

Joy Denebeim Dec 20, 2022

@aby @davidr @eniko @candyleader or rather you're not seeing those who did block you.

Bellis Coldwine Dec 20, 2022

@davidr @eniko @candyleader I have a Linktree with links to various shops with my stuff: https://linktr.ee/nschulman?fbclid=PAAaY6VORhwoenAJzpBcpqHqm_oA6K5Kmbs2NPk2hUPZLtMqlpkTjPiVs8l3w

Nicole Schulman- Art & Stuff | Instagram | Linktree

Links to my art portfolio and merch.

Linktree

dr 🛠️🛰️📡🎧

blobfoxcomputer

@BellisColdwine @eniko @candyleader Wow, cool "outsider art + inner madness" vibe!

Gen X-Wing Dec 20, 2022

@davidr @eniko @candyleader The ephemeral nature of microblogs (what a dumb term) isn’t good for these things imho. The information pops up and then quickly fades away.

Best advice I have now is “put links to stores in your profile” and be creative with the toots. Don’t just show a photo of the item and “buy me”. Show me how it’s made. Talk about the process, answer some questions.

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@breadbin @davidr @eniko @candyleader
But that stuff's just social media 101, & I'd bet money a lot of the folks getting accused of spamming are doing that.

Gen X-Wing Dec 20, 2022

@FeralRobots @davidr @eniko @candyleader Probably both. I’ve seen profiles without any links where I can support/spend money. And some aren’t very interactive yet.

It’s very hard to know since our feeds are so different. I’m not getting spammed, but others might be.

N.B. not a creator, so just observing and pitching in what I as a consumer is looking for.

dr 🛠️🛰️📡🎧

blobfoxcomputer

@breadbin @FeralRobots @eniko @candyleader Undoubtedly some spam out there. I've been followed by completely empty shell accounts.

But are spammers going to listen to anti-capitalist screeds and obediently keep away?

Michael Coorlim Dec 20, 2022

@davidr @breadbin @FeralRobots @eniko @candyleader to be honest it doesn't matter as much what spammers do as their tactics won't be as effective here. It's difficult to market on Mastodon using traditional broadcast techniques.

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@davidr @breadbin @eniko @candyleader
Well, TBF, maybe.
I mean, that might be an acid test, as it were, for whether they're really a spammer.

Michael Coorlim Dec 20, 2022

@breadbin @davidr @eniko @candyleader it's very much a "sell yourself, not your [products]" situation in a lot of cases. Get people to invest in the creator.

zephyr Dec 20, 2022

@davidr @eniko @candyleader I will absolutely share links and creative people too!! Not going to stop now.

zephyr Dec 20, 2022

@davidr @eniko @candyleader I have to wonder if we're getting some of the purity/wokescold culture from the Twitter migration. These people exist everywhere, but also Twitter, and by extension YouTube, housed a lot of this culture. And I know of a lot of individuals who have been creating accounts on mastodon instances.

dr 🛠️🛰️📡🎧

blobfoxcomputer

@zena @eniko @candyleader "I will brook absolutely nobody making money" is a not-uncommon FOSS attitude of longstanding.

It's especially stupid to blame "capitalism" here, though, since artists and craftspeople are producing goods via *labor* not control of capital.

They are if anything *more* productive members of society than the people who are sitting here in this virtual coffeehouse just chatting.

Xerxes Dec 20, 2022

@eniko @candyleader there seems to be an unnecessary amount of shaming “white dudes” here. Generalisations without data are never helpful and often hurtful. If you want “white dudes” to be more supportive maybe stop making these assertions?

Chad Kirby Dec 20, 2022

@Xerxes11 @eniko @candyleader My white-fragility radar is beeping.
Here's the thing -- nobody is telling you that you have personally done something wrong or that you are a problem because of your skin color or privilege. The world is controlled by cis men, and in the US, it's specifically white men. Being unable to handle criticism in positions of power is exactly what's pushing the fascist movement. Elon is the perfect example.

Chad Kirby Dec 20, 2022

@Xerxes11 @eniko @candyleader The white technocrats are red-pilled, because of white fragility (in my view). It’s the same as that hate group that Roger Stone is part of. They have that initiation ceremony where you have to go on social media and declare something like "My name is ___, and I'm not ashamed of creating the Western world." These people are pushing back against the guilt of being white men, which was never the point.

Chad Kirby Dec 20, 2022

@Xerxes11 @eniko @candyleader Having white skin and a weener is not something that makes you a bad person. But it does automatically put you in a class that holds tremendous power and privilege. You don't have to feel bad about yourself. These are things you can't control. It's more about accepting the power dynamic, and being open to thinking about it.

Chad Kirby Dec 20, 2022

@Xerxes11 @eniko @candyleader So when people from marginalized groups complain about being harassed by white men, I suggest that you don't take it as a personal attack. It's about the power structures. White men hold all the power as a class, and failing to consider the power dynamic and rage against criticism is what creates white angst hate groups.

Xerxes Dec 20, 2022

@chad @eniko @candyleader I don’t take it as a personal attack and by the way, I’m not white. I just think your continued focus on blaming “white dudes” when you have no data to back your assertion is a bit ridiculous and takes away from the point you are trying to make. Maybe try to practice the same level of inclusiveness that you want to see from others.

Xerxes Dec 20, 2022

@chad @eniko @candyleader your unevidenced assumption that the comments you don’t like are from “white dudes” is no less sexist and racist than those you are protesting.

Chad Kirby Dec 20, 2022

@Xerxes11 @eniko @candyleader Sure -- I may have jumped into this conversation with a faulty assumption. The main point still remains: why are you offended by people in marginalized communities complaining about dominant classes? How is that race/sex-ism? And what is it about your own identity that's causing some kind of frustration that you should fight against it?
These are just questions to consider if you are open to introspection.

Xerxes Dec 20, 2022

@chad @eniko @candyleader I’m not against people in marginalised communities complaining about dominant classes where there is something specific to complain about. You aren’t doing that though. You are making an unsupported generalisation that behaviour you don’t like is being carried out by a particular demographic. I will call that behaviour out no matter who it’s aimed at.

Leonard Stolas Dec 20, 2022

@chad @Xerxes11 @eniko @candyleader So, by red-pilled, you mean blue-pilled. (Remember, in The Matrix, the red pill was the one that showed the world as it really is)

Chad Kirby Dec 20, 2022

@leonardstolas @Xerxes11 @eniko @candyleader lol I’m just using the expression as created by the right

Leonard Stolas Dec 20, 2022

@chad @Xerxes11 @eniko @candyleader It wasn't created by the right. It was created by a pair of directors who are trans women.

It's like I'm not going to call a racist a "race realist". I don't accept their framing

Chad Kirby Dec 20, 2022

@leonardstolas Yeah. I get it. I get where you're coming from. I'm just referring to their framing. It's stupid and completely opposite of what the Wachowskis would ever intend, but it's a phenomenon, and this is what people are calling it.
So shoot me lol.

Chad Kirby Dec 20, 2022

@Xerxes11 @eniko @candyleader Here's an older column I found that muses on the topic.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/style/white-guilt-privilege.html
The defensiveness is a reaction to not wanting to feel guilty. To assert that you haven't done anything wrong (which is true!). But you don't have to rage against the guilt to be free of it. It has a lot to do with identity.

How Can I Cure My White Guilt?

The thing about privilege is that it can be used for good.

mastodon quixote Dec 20, 2022

@Xerxes11 personally, i don't appreciate your generalization implying that my support for materially struggling people is contingent on their never saying anything that might hurt my demographic's feelings

Xerxes Dec 20, 2022

@valrus I think you’ll find that I can’t make a generalisation about your specific feelings. The two are mutually exclusive. I am however making the generalisation that people *in general* are more likely to be supportive of a position if they don’t feel attacked. I believe this to be true of all people regardless of ethnicity, gender, sexuality, or religious affiliation.

Katma Dec 20, 2022

@eniko @Xerxes11 @candyleader
If it doesn’t apply to you, you don’t need to feel shame. Just keep scrolling

That said, telling someone to avoid saying things that *may* make you uncomfortable so that you *might* support them is feeding a classist/sexist/racist system. A dose of shame is appropriate in that case. I don’t like feeling remorse/discomfort either, but it’s sometimes good for me and (more importantly) others

Xerxes Dec 20, 2022

@KatMA @eniko @candyleader I don’t feel shame. I’m pointing out the flawed thinking.

Katma Dec 20, 2022

@eniko @Xerxes11 @candyleader
I didn’t say you did feel shame. I just said it would be appropriate

FeralRobots Dec 20, 2022

@Xerxes11 @KatMA @eniko @candyleader
You're makng a tacit claim that anecdata is not data.
It may not be the kind of data you trust or want to use, but it absolutely is data. & often it shows us things you couldn't get with more 'objective' data.

Xerxes Dec 20, 2022

@FeralRobots @KatMA @eniko @candyleader by that logic if my house gets burgled by someone of a particular ethnicity I should all burglaries are committed by people of that ethnicity. You can’t have it both ways. Either you treat each person on their merits or you are biased.

Katma Dec 20, 2022

@candyleader @Xerxes11 @eniko @FeralRobots
Wow! That is an excellent example of “flawed thinking”! Actually pretty impressive.
Anyway, I’ve burnt enough time on this. Bye!