DanDec 12, 2022
Lauren Weinstein

Someone just mentioned the differences between #Twitter and #Google regarding user data. Yes, indeed.

I've worked inside #Google twice. Their explicit rules, approvals, logging and "need to know" requirements for access to user data are most impressive. Anyone even attempting to access user data inappropriately is fired and marched out the door by security. This is part of why I have a great deal of trust in Google, and consider Elon's #Twitter to be utterly untrustworthy and totally beneath contempt.

Dec 11, 2022 at 6:51pmWeb
Show threadPoeticLicenseDKDec 11, 2022
@lauren
What's to stop Google from going all Twitter on us?
Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@PoeticLicenseDK Well, first off, the way the company is organized it would be very difficult for a fiend like Musk to do a hostile takeover. That's a big help.
Show threadPoeticLicenseDKDec 11, 2022
@lauren
Makes me wonder what went so wrong with the #DirtyBird site that allowed one person to commandeer the plane and fly ot into the side of a mountain.
Show threadRachel GreenhamDec 11, 2022
@PoeticLicenseDK @lauren it was financially vulnerable to takeover. The people in charge of it would seem to have been looking to deal themselves out of that hole. Whatever issues there are with google, they’re not in that situation.
Show threadRobin from Colorado 🇺🇸🇺🇦Dec 12, 2022
@PoeticLicenseDK @lauren it was only ever profitable when Trump was on it. That’s what happened. They never figured out how to monetize it properly.
Show threadIt's Just Jenn 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 11, 2022
@lauren @PoeticLicenseDK I'm pretty sure Google is so big that no one person could raise the equity to just buy it, for one thing. I think we forget that as big as it is, Twitter is small change compared to companies like Facebook and Google.
Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@Tweetfiction @PoeticLicenseDK And the stock is organized in a way as to make a hostile takeover exceptionally unlikely.
Show threadocdtrekkieDec 11, 2022
@lauren @Tweetfiction @PoeticLicenseDK Well, yeah, Larry and Sergey are basically autocrats accountable to noone thanks to dual class shares. Of course, they can at any time *decide to go full Musk*, as rich people with a history of sexual harassment and abuse are wont to do.
Show threadocdtrekkieDec 11, 2022
@lauren @Tweetfiction @PoeticLicenseDK Google's primary protection seems to just be that Larry and Sergey are way too fond of their yachts and private islands to burn it all to the ground, the way Musk is rapidly lowering his rank on the world's richest people list.
Show threadPoeticLicenseDKDec 11, 2022
@ocdtrekkie @lauren @Tweetfiction
Yikes ...
I wonder if Xeni ever made it over to Masto. She had personal experience.
Show threadocdtrekkieDec 11, 2022
@PoeticLicenseDK @lauren @Tweetfiction Don't know this person, but can confirm from trying to find out that she deleted her Twitter account.
Show threadPoeticLicenseDKDec 11, 2022

@ocdtrekkie @lauren @Tweetfiction
What's the downside of just leaving an account dormant on the #DirtyBird site a few Scaramuchis to wait Elon's creditors out for foreclosure?

He can't simply bleed out indefinitely? Didn't he use Tesla as collateral? Isn't he headed for personal guarantee He!!?

Show threadocdtrekkieDec 11, 2022
@PoeticLicenseDK @lauren @Tweetfiction Arguably that he has access to the data in it. But at this point there's really no guarantee he'll delete your data if you delete your account anyways. It probably just depends if those particular microservices got shut off or not.
Show threadPoeticLicenseDKDec 11, 2022
@ocdtrekkie @lauren @Tweetfiction
💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💣💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Jimi Hendrix - Someone's house is burning down ....
Show threaddragonfrogDec 12, 2022
@PoeticLicenseDK @ocdtrekkie @lauren @Tweetfiction I suspect Twitter isn't "coming back". He'll for sure manage to hang on to the site for long enough to make it somewhere no one sensible will want to go back to. Letting the Nazis have the run of a place isn't an easily reversible operation.
Show threadocdtrekkieDec 12, 2022
@dragonfrog @PoeticLicenseDK @lauren @Tweetfiction Yeah it'll eventually get sold off for parts but it'll never return it what it was. Maybe like AOL and Yahoo it'll get sold to Verizon for a chill billion.
Show threadIt's Just Jenn 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 12, 2022
@ocdtrekkie @dragonfrog @PoeticLicenseDK @lauren It'll be back in some form or another. Hell, the name alone is probably worth a billion. Look at Napster, they sold the IP and now ironically it's a legit music streaming service!
Show threadocdtrekkieDec 12, 2022
@Tweetfiction @dragonfrog @PoeticLicenseDK @lauren Yeah but probably not as something you'd still feel the need to have an account with.
Show threadPoeticLicenseDKDec 13, 2022

@ocdtrekkie @Tweetfiction @dragonfrog @lauren
A small group nearly pulled off a coup on 1/6. Some would argue that TFG seized the presidency with the help of governments & organizations hostile to democracy. Most still salute the flag of the USA, despite the 4yr reign of a saboteur.

The social media brand itself hasn't been destroyed, because the #DirtyBird site is really something completely different. It's a longshot, but why couldn't banks force Elon to sell?

Show threadMark TomczakDec 12, 2022

@ocdtrekkie @lauren @Tweetfiction @PoeticLicenseDK

Turns out there's an awful lot of human-constructed systems that burn quickly to the ground if the humans in charge choose to do the wrong thing.

In the era after the Trump Presidency, I'm under-impressed at dire warnings of what tech CEOs might do. Alternative power structures, it turns out, are also unimpressively robust to failure.

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 12, 2022
@mtomczak @ocdtrekkie @Tweetfiction @PoeticLicenseDK Exactly. Speculation about other CEOs and persons is just that -- speculation. Right now we have a *known* evil in Musk, who is turning #Twitter into an instrumentality to spread evil. That is enough to be thinking about for now.
Show threadPoeticLicenseDKDec 12, 2022
@mtomczak @ocdtrekkie @lauren @Tweetfiction
Many human created systems, not just Twitter, are reeling, despite checks and balances. The US Govt, despite the Constitution, crash tested by TFG. The ultimate check, the peaceful transition via the popular vote, almost failed. A case b4 the Supreme Court could set the stage for an electoral coup. Local school boards. The grid, being probed for weaknesses. Sure feels like a coordinated assault.
Show threadthe_breezeDec 11, 2022
@lauren @PoeticLicenseDK
I wasn’t aware that Mr. Musk’s purchase of Twitter was some sort of hostile… anything. When/where did that come out?
Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@the_breeze @PoeticLicenseDK It meets the general definition. Outsider shows up at a company not for sale and demands to buy it.
Show threadthe_breezeDec 11, 2022
@lauren @PoeticLicenseDK
Ok. That’s not quite what happened with the Musk/Twitter purchase.
Show threadAndreas KDec 11, 2022
@PoeticLicenseDK @lauren Basically, despite that Google is an evil surveillance company, they are basically set up to be GDPR-compliant by default.

If they use the data for whatever purpose, they usually do it by purpose, not because somebody happened to stumble into some database lying around, and decided to use the data,
Show threadAndreas KDec 11, 2022
@PoeticLicenseDK @lauren Please don't take that as meaning that they are nice, but the work to run a company in secure manner, and running it in a GDPR compliant manner, funny now that you mention it, does have some relevant overlap.
Show threadPoeticLicenseDKDec 11, 2022

@yacc143 @lauren
At least Google demonstrates technical competence.

As for the other site, it's as if someone intentionally set off a social media #DirtyBird bomb to blow up the most commonly used platform for democratic discourse.

Show threadAndreas KDec 11, 2022

@PoeticLicenseDK @lauren Well, it was a well known fact that Twitter has no technical competence managing its data.

(Hint: Twitter has the harshest privacy related FTC consent decree in the tech sector, AFAIK.)

Show threadAndreas KDec 11, 2022

@PoeticLicenseDK @lauren And it's proof again that consumers never are interested in technical soundness of products.

A recurring nightmare to my engineering half. Windows 3.11 again.

Customer buy into obviously technically unsound solutions, let manufacturers sell them “premium solutions” that actually have only (or mostly) disadvantages for the user, and so on, …

Sometimes one feels obligated to become a culture pessimist.

Show threadPoeticLicenseDKDec 11, 2022
@yacc143 @lauren
Elon is a chaos agent; technical soundness does not matter, because he has no standard for operating a social media company, he's just making it up as he goes. For automobiles, OTOH, nobody wants to drive a car with poor handling, no power, & that breaks down.
Show threadTom StonehamDec 11, 2022

@lauren I am told by a Facebook insider that same was/is true there.

But the problem is: why do you have something in the first place if it needs such protection?

Surely true #DataPrivacy means don't collect rather than don't misuse.

Once it has been collected, the user has lost their privacy even if *you* don't misuse it. It's all about power.

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@tomstoneham People want to be able to message each other. All else being equal, I prefer end to end cryptography, but that is not always practical in all contexts, and brings complicated political issues into the equation that can really muddy things up.
Show threadTom StonehamDec 11, 2022

@lauren Can't think of a context where it isn't practical except SMS and email.

And the political is *exactly* why everyone must fight for it! 😝

We wouldn't tolerate 1984-style telescreens, so why tolerate similar intrusions on our digital spaces?

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@tomstoneham The problem of course is that some governments are explicitly banning it in various contexts. On the other hand, Apple just announced that they were ending their CSAM scanning on devices project.
Show threadTom StonehamDec 11, 2022

@lauren Ever used WeChat? Client side scanning for political content there (try using an image if Winnie the Pooh in Moments). Doesn't have to be at OS level.

Best way to fight governments who want to ban something is normalise it. Make it everyday for people who didn't know they cared about it.

Show threadmarkDec 11, 2022

@tomstoneham @lauren I'm at meta, and it's true. Access is strictly regulated and tracked. You don't get to see people's data if you don't have a use for it. And if you do you are watched and logged. They keep it safe.

Maybe not altruistic, because it is their profit base.

Show threadTom StonehamDec 11, 2022
@ATLeagle @lauren
So if it needs that level of protection, time to rethink collecting it at all
Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@tomstoneham @ATLeagle Billions of people around the world want these services and depend on them. Most of these services depend on data. The issue is making sure that the data is being handled responsibly, not ending services that require data.
Show threadTom StonehamDec 11, 2022

@lauren @ATLeagle
'require'?

But that is a long conversation not suited to this medium.

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@tomstoneham @ATLeagle Agreed this is not the best venue for such a technical discussion ...
Show threadmarkDec 11, 2022

@lauren @tomstoneham I remember the terrible treatment of consumers at the hands of the owners of communication infrastructure in the 70s and 80s . There is always a price for things people want and use.

Not defending the practices, just pointing out that they do protect well, and I agree there is more nuance than we can cover correctly in a text only forum.

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@ATLeagle @tomstoneham The dominant telcos/ISPs have always been problematic, and have become worse over recent years.
Show threadSteveDec 11, 2022
@ATLeagle @tomstoneham @lauren
My impression is that Facebook guards user data not to protect users' privacy but because user data are the company's crown jewels of trade secrets
Show threadmarkDec 11, 2022
@Steve98052 @tomstoneham @lauren manipulation and use of the data is really the competitive advantage, but owning the data is the foundation. No one new can compete with the backstory of our lives that meta owns.
Show threadTom StonehamDec 12, 2022
@ATLeagle @Steve98052 @lauren
Unless they have a different business model?
Show threadKee HinckleyDec 11, 2022
@tomstoneham @lauren
It is definitely that way at Meta for new things. Although cleanup of privacy holes from before they locked thjngs down is an ongoing process (literally, every quarter has Privacy Waves). I declined a job in the privacy group because it seemed hellish to be caught between lawyers and legacy code.
Show threadJohn PanzerDec 11, 2022
@lauren Absolutely can confirm. I knew things were going to go to hell at Twitter when people like Lea Kissner resigned.
Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@jpanzer I was absolutely watching to see what Lea would do. So long as she was there, I figured there was a chance that Twitter might still have redeeming characteristics. When she left, that was it. I knew Twitter had embraced the dark side.
Show threadJohn PanzerDec 11, 2022
@lauren Yes, exactly. I knew bad things were going to happen that were not yet publicly apparent. If it were still a public company, that’s when I would have shorted the stock.
Show threadKarl AuerbachDec 11, 2022

@lauren - When I worked for the US Dep't of Defense (and certain three letter agencies) I was under similar rules. Yet, those rules were often interpreted so broadly as to be useless. Someone (not me) decided I had "need to know" for some exceptionally sensitive classified data that I actually had no need for, no interest in, and never looked at.

My point being is that rules are nice, but how they are applied is at least as important.

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@karlauerbach Of course. And my assertion is that G applies them very well.
Show threadGoappstateDec 11, 2022
@lauren I think there’s another big difference too.
The benefit of a public company is shareholders can demand at least some level of accountability.
What EM’s done the last few weeks wouldn’t fly at a public company.
The irony is EM tried to take Tesla private. Had he succeeded, he wouldn’t have amassed the same fortune and been able to acquire Twitter and take it private.
Show threadSpacewizard! (Ed H)Dec 11, 2022

@lauren That's good to know, thanks.

(So we're safe with Google till the wrong billionaire buys them...)

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@spacewizard The stock is organized in a way that makes it extremely unlikely that a hostile takeover would succeed. The founders were quite prescient.
Show threadSpacewizard! (Ed H)Dec 11, 2022

@lauren I feel a little better about slightly relaxing my longstanding "avoid giving Google any information" policy, and allowing it to keep track of youtube vids I've watched and using Google Maps while logged in sometimes.

I still tell them not to store my search history though, and my frontline search is DuckDuckGo

Show threadfedi Dec 11, 2022

@lauren

"Their explicit rules, approvals, logging and "need to know" requirements for access to user data are most impressive."

Yes, they sell all the data, evilly obtained, to the highest bidder.

You're acting as an apologist for the world's worst surveillance capitalist.

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@fedi They do not sell user data to any outside entities. They never have. I've been in there and seen how it works firsthand. Have you?
Show threadfedi Dec 11, 2022
@lauren Google steals the personal data of billions of people with impunity. They are beyond evil.
Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 11, 2022
@fedi You don't know what you are talking about. Goodbye.