John ConwayNov 23, 2022

Big rumblings in the expansion of the #Fediverse have been happening recently.

#Tumblr has already promised to implement #ActivityPub (the protocol Mastodon uses), which will mean you can follow Tumblr accounts from here and vice versa. And today we a learning that #Flickr is also considering it!

This will be a massive expansion, which obviously carries some uncertainties, but I, for one, welcome our new federation partners.

This is the way the internet is supposed to work.

Show threadkatedegerdon anti-tory pro-euNov 23, 2022
@john Will Mastadon's servers have the capacity to cope with all this new activity? They must have zillions arriving from Twitter too?
Show threadPammyStarr   ✍️Nov 23, 2022
@katedegerdon @john I assume more activity means more instances. It seems every busy celebrity needs their own, for instance. Businesses will pop up that specialize in running your Mastodon servers, etc.
Show threadKadinNov 23, 2022

@pammystarr @katedegerdon @john
That already exists: https://masto.host offers managed Mastodon hosting ($40/mo for ~500 users, seems a bit high but not unreasonable to me), but right now they are so swamped they're not taking new subscriptions. Heck of a problem to have as a business.

I do have some questions about how well Mastodon (the mainline server) scales, and if there are opportunities for optimization that could make managed hosting cheaper per user.

Masto.host - Fully Managed Mastodon Hosting

Masto.host was built from the ground up to make running a Mastodon instance easy.

Masto.host
Show threadJohn ConwayNov 23, 2022

@kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon Other implementations of ActivityPub are more efficient, so I understand. Pleroma for one.

Still, I think masto.host offers a good deal, and their support is top-notch.

Toot.io also offers managed hosting, but it's starts pretty high: https://toot.io/mastodon_hosting.html

toot.io - Fully Managed Mastodon Hosting

Fully managed, dedicated Mastodon hosting by toot.io—transparent pricing, reliable operations, and expert support.

toot.io - Fully Managed Mastodon Hosting
Show threadRamiro Salas 

@john @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon

I think Pleroma is the way to go. Its Elixir-based scalable architecture, design and compatibility surpasses Mastodon, but it does need more love on the web UI side of things.

The Metatext app connects seamlessly to it as well as Mastodon.

Nov 23, 2022 at 6:18pmWeb
Show threadJohn ConwayNov 23, 2022

@rsalas @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon

Pleroma's web-facing aspect could do with some work, yes. But also, is there a reason Pleroma instances seem to be run by mostly trollish dickheads?

Show threadTomat0Nov 23, 2022

@john @rsalas @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon

Just a different culture. Mastodon very much has a left-wing slant, so those on the Fedi without that slant tend to set up Pleroma instances. But there's nothing inherent about the technology that makes it that way.

The beauty of the Fediverse is complete free association. If you feel underrepresented, start your own instance. If you don't want to interact with a community, block that instance.

Show threadTomat0Nov 23, 2022

@john @rsalas @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon

We needn't worry about those people merely existing, they can do what they want and we have the tools to handle it on our end, just like how they have the tools to carve out their own spaces.

Show threadpiccolboNov 24, 2022
@tomat0 @john @rsalas @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon what happens if people from instances that block each other interact with a third party on an instance that federates with the first two? Let's say the third one starts a thread and the other two reply? Will they see incomplete versions of the thread?
Show threadTomat0Nov 24, 2022

@piccolbo @john @rsalas @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon

It'd work like blocked accounts on Twitter. You'd see what you don't have specifically blocked and what hasn't specifically blocked you.

Show threadpiccolboNov 24, 2022
@tomat0 @john @rsalas @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon we were talking about instance blocks, not personal ones. The former don't exist on Twitter. Would that be the same?
Show threadKadinNov 24, 2022

@piccolbo @tomat0 @john @rsalas @pammystarr @katedegerdon
I'm a bit unclear on this as well, but I *think* that users on the mutually-blocking instances won't see posts originating from the other instance, so they end up with different threads. Not sure how else it would work, TBH.

Sidebar: I noticed today (when viewing one of @john's posts from SDF, vs a friend using vmst.io), that we were seeing different versions of the thread, presumably due to delays in propagation across the network.

Show threadRamiro Salas Nov 23, 2022

@john @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon

I've noticed that too, but I wouldn't necessarily equate the community with the software it's built upon. There is no scarcity of dickish trolls regardless of the medium.

If anything, they may have chosen Pleroma early on mainly because it could run on cheaper and more limited hardware with ease.

Show threadPammyStarr   ✍️Nov 23, 2022
@john LOL
Show threadKadinNov 23, 2022

@john
This is Reddit gossip so take it with a *very* large chunk of salt, but there are claims that:

> The founder of Pleroma, Lain, programed Pleroma to be harder to block from other instances than a comparable Mastodon Instance. Those blocked Pleroma instance Admins tell me their posts sometimes get through to the Mastodon servers.

Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/Pleroma/comments/yu8xof/pleromas_rebased_fork_vs_akkoma_fork/

I don't know what that means from a technical perspective, though. How is an instance "hard to block"? 🤷‍♂️

Pleroma's Rebased Fork vs. Akkoma Fork?

------ Rebased vs. Akkoma - Which is better? Universal Advantages for All Pleroma Forks 1) The founder of Pleroma, Lain, programed Pleroma to...

reddit
Show threadJohn ConwayNov 23, 2022
@kadin Hmm, yeah, I can't see how that could be done technically. But... maybe?
Show threadNelsonNov 23, 2022

@john Top reason is that Pleroma had a prominent TERF involved with development for a while, so the Pleroma community self-selected for people who are ok with transphobia. (Discussing this often attracts sea lions who claim that technology is neutral, bemoaning cancel culture.)

For people who like the technology but want a community that might enforce a code of conduct, consider the hard fork Akkoma instead: https://coffee-and-dreams.uk/development/2022/06/24/akkoma.html

Akkoma: A vision to refocus Pleroma

<p>I figure I should probably put developments of the past two weeks or so into a more formal format - I tend to be rather too keen on the "doing" ...

Coffee and Dreams
Show threadRichSJNov 23, 2022
@skyfaller @john I really wanted to like Pleroma, but its just to dang buggy (even Akkoma) and the interface is just all over the place. I definitely favor Mastodon, Misskey, and Soapbox.
Show threadNelsonNov 23, 2022
@Richstjr @john And now I have to get specific, Alex Gleason is a TERF and he's the founder of Soapbox. I cannot recommend Soapbox to anyone, trans rights are human rights and this developer should not be welcome in any community.
Show threadpiccolboNov 24, 2022
@skyfaller @Richstjr @john but didn't Gab run in mastodon for a while? Couldn't i start a progressive server running pleroma? Or is hate hard-coded?
Show threadRobby O'ConnorNov 24, 2022
@piccolbo @skyfaller @Richstjr @john I wouldn't use software written by a TERF when I have the choice to use software not written by a turd.
Show threadRichSJNov 24, 2022
@robbyoconnor @piccolbo @skyfaller @john I'll put it this way, be thankful that there is alternatives to twitter and that they can all talk to each other using a common and open protocol. (ActivityPub) I'd really hate to live in a world without alternatives.
Show threadRobby O'ConnorNov 24, 2022

@Richstjr @piccolbo @skyfaller @john and there's plenty of alternatives that aren't developed by TERF scum.

I don't have the luxury to be apolitical.

Show threadneoNov 24, 2022
@piccolbo @skyfaller @Richstjr @john

hate is hardcoded into the mastodon user's DNA. Using pleroma is reason enough for them for permanent action.
Show threadRichSJNov 24, 2022
@skyfaller @john Well, regardless of how people feel about Gleason, they can't deny that Soapbox is an excellent piece of software. (if a bit too tw*tt*r-like)
Show threadBalrog BoogerNov 24, 2022
Oh God, a sinner wrote software! Watch out! The devil will possess you through Soapbox!!!
Show threadkatNov 24, 2022

@skyfaller @john

The pleroma thing predates Alex Gleason.. by several years..

Kinda post gamergate really.

It's a bit like it's the community of developers that came in that wave of fediverse expansion

Show threadMinaNov 24, 2022

@skyfaller @john people who claim that technology is neutral need to study history, and shut the fuck up.

Here's someone smart saying 37 years ago that technology is a tool of domination: http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html

Weizenbaum examines computers and society - The Tech

An article from the Tuesday, April 9, 1985 issue of The Tech - MIT's oldest and largest newspaper and the first newspaper published on the Internet.

Show threadNelsonNov 24, 2022
@meena I'm not able to load that URL, I get 401 Unauthorized
Show threadlevel 5 troon hazardNov 24, 2022
@skyfaller @john pleroma also is the only one to expose the federated timeline to people who aren’t logged in, so it’s easier to tell if a pleroma instance includes people who follow shitheads. i’m sure there’s plenty of shitty mastodon instances nobody realizes are like that
Show threadDaphneNov 24, 2022
@john @rsalas @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon just poking around, it seems like there is a fair bit of toxicity floating around and emanating from the Pleroma initiative and forks. It doesn't seem like hitching the Mastodon community's technical fate to that codebase and development community would be very healthy.
Show threadStrypeyNov 24, 2022

@john
> Pleroma's web-facing aspect

... doesn't matter. It's an artifact of a much older 'verse that you can be appreciate for its olde world charm. Or...

... you can toss it aside and hook up a Pleroma server to literally any other web app you like, including the default Mastodon web apps themselves, Pinafore, Soapbox, Glitch-lily etc. You could fork and update abandoned ones like Halcyon or Brutaldon if you're into that. Bonfire is coming soon...

@rsalas @kadin @pammystarr @katedegerdon

Show threadKadinNov 24, 2022
@strypey @john @rsalas @pammystarr @katedegerdon
Good point, and this is probably the right choice in terms of architecture. The web UI should ideally be just like any other client (iOS native, Android native, desktop, whatever), using the same APIs, potentially not even running on the same server. Keep the frontend, backend, and database/storage cleanly separated from each other.
#Mastodon #Pleroma #architecture
Show threadStrypeyNov 25, 2022

@kadin
> The web UI should ideally be just like any other client... using the same APIs,

The ActivityPub spec actually has a server>client API, but I'm not sure if it's ever been implemented. Mastodon has its own bespoke API, which Pleroma implemented too.

> potentially not even running on the same server.

I've been using pinafore.social as my web app, which is an instance on Pinafore running on a different server from mastodon.nzoss.nz.

@john @rsalas @pammystarr @katedegerdon

Show threadKadinNov 23, 2022

@rsalas @john
It appears that there's already an ongoing effort to bring a #Mastodon-like UI to the #Pleroma backend, at least if I am understanding this project's goals correctly:
https://lily-is.land/infra/glitch-lily/

I feel like I'm going to need a quick reference guide to keep track of the various software forks that have sprung up, though: #Glitch, #Hometown, #Akkoma, Pleroma Rebased, etc.

kazv.moe infrastructure / glitch-lily · GitLab

To make glitch frontend work with Pleroma. Forked from https://github.com/glitch-soc/mastodon

GitLab