Joseph KaminskiNot really understanding Mastodon at this point. It claimed to be anti-harassment, yet I've seen some horrifying messages about McCain and his family since he died. It claimed to be an alternative to Twitter, yet every damn message I see on the timelines say "birdsite" (why mention what you're supposedly trying to get away from?). I really don't see purpose of the site if its foundation is compromised/contradicted by its general users. @Gargron
@Gargron The Wil Wheaton drama coupled with the hoards of John McCain "shitposting" (honestly some of the rudest messages I've ever seen on social media) really turned me off from the so-called good qualities this website offered. Corporatized Twitter sucks, but mob-fueled digitized verbal lynching is not a proper or coherent rival. Maybe social media in general needs revitalization and not half-hearted attempts at becoming the "next big thing" in the short attention span of the internet.
@Gargron To summarize, the site has evolved from a good-natured alternative into a "you're either with us or fuck you" social club that seems to exist solely to make fun of those who don't agree, constantly bring up "the problems" with "birdsite", and circlejerk pointless information for the rip-off "toots" that rarely exist as the site is split off into different sub-communities that do not seem to interact - yet all serve the same purpose.
@Gargron Also - basic sociology - when too many categories are created, those categories become worthless. The overuse of content warnings on this site break the overall flow of the timelines and creates a terrible situation where "if everything is content warning'd, then nothing is content warning'd at all."
infinite love ⴳ@josephkaminski ...are you serious? simply "being rude" in the abstract isn't against the rules, john mccain was unequivocally a terrible person, and using the cw feature is a courtesy just like adding an email subject line
@trwnh did you not see the majority of the posts that I did? It went further than "being rude". Treating someone as entirely inhumane for being a "terrible person" (which I agree, he was) does not make you self-righteous and good-hearted.
@josephkaminski well, that's a matter where many people will disagree with you. there's no love lost for war criminals, bigots, and oppressors.
@trwnh it is entirely hypocritical of someone to treat their enemies in such a way when they would freak out if their enemies treated them the same way. You do not have to respect someone to be humane in discussion. I do not like McCain, but the "I wish I could have killed him before brain cancer could", "fuck him and his entire bloodline", and even worse thoughts that I will not write here is not a good way to show that you do not like somebody. That is the first step to an Us vs Them society.
@josephkaminski Here's a counterargument: marginalized people are already treated terribly, and they owe no civility to their oppressors. As for the last bit, well... "the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." Conflict between oppressor and oppressed didn't just spring into being because some smarmy old todger died. Your analysis is lacking any consideration for power dynamics and "punching up".
@trwnh being the bigger person takes effort, being the bigger person through proving the other side wrong with logic, reasoning, and humanity changes the world. Putting a communist symbol in a username to be edgy and calling someone a derogatory word (ironically on a safe-space site dedicated to CW) takes no effort and makes no difference in the world and only leads to distancing "power dynamics" among different sides.
@josephkaminski Logic and reasoning are weaknesses to be exploited by those who don't believe in them. The fact that you think things are "edgy" or "derogatory" and that you call this a "safe space" are clear signals of your politics, so I'll only say this: there is no irony here. It's not toxic or harassing to speak negatively of a terrible person among comrades, especially not a dead one.
@trwnh The political "definition" of safe space, the one you are clinging onto and believe I am referring to, is not the actual definition. I am actually a registered Secular Safezone and LGBT Advocacy Safespace recipient as I took intensive diversity courses to earn said placards. You're failing to see that I am not right-wing. I'm an educator with a passion for diversity and inclusion - something mastadon's social server has failed to believe in.
@josephkaminski I'm going to speak plainly: no joke about McCain's death can ever be remotely as toxic as even a *fraction* of what most of us received daily on Twitter. There is simply no comparison to be made. "Diversity and inclusion" cannot include bigots and abusers, point blank.
@trwnh and I never claimed it should. Diversity + inclusion means looking at the perspective of bigots and abusers, pointing out what is directly wrong with them, + educating people about the aspects of tolerance + humanity that would eradicate said bigotry through diversity, multiculturalism, open thoughts. Ironically enough, you're fighting with me over a thought - a direct consequence of ingrouping. And I'll reiterate - what I saw on Mastodon that day was worse than any other social platform.
@josephkaminski You are clearly privileged enough to not see what we have seen, if you're still claiming that it's "worse than any other social platform".
Ingrouping has nothing to do with this. And bigotry must be challenged directly -- it is not enough to preach tolerance.
@trwnh ah, yes. Privilege. Another political phrase you're using despite not having a clear grasp of the actual diversified definition. Ingrouping has everything to do with this, by the way. And I'll say it clearly so you stop pulling at that straw: I've never said preach tolerance towards bigotry. I've said preach tolerance against bigotry. Don't give them ammo of you being a shitlord. Becoming the bigot doesn't make you the better person.
@josephkaminski Respectability politics have never worked. Even the most inoffensive comments will attract abuse, as long as you're a target. Do you think these people care about "being the better person"? https://mastodon.social/media/EOGvDXpYbQJQzfGbMvE https://mastodon.social/media/Y_2T_10wnzj9uty0iCY
@josephkaminski And that's a small sample of what you can expect when you're prominently and visibly a member of a marginalized community.
@trwnh and this brings us directly back to ingrouping and how "these people" exist.
I will reiterate, once again, I DO NOT KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THE IDEA THAT I SAID RESPECT THESE PEOPLE. I have not advocated sitting down with a cup of tea with literal nazis. I have said don't give them bait to work with and turn it into propaganda to show others how they are the victims. (THEY ARE NOT).
Preaching tolerance to AVOID PEOPLE BECOMING BIGOTS. You're straw-grabbing has evolved into star-gazing.
@josephkaminski the last thing I'm going to say (because I'm not interested in continuing this conversation further) is that **simply existing** is enough "bait" for them to work with. have a nice night.
@trwnh If you do not believe my stance on issues concerning bigotry, here's a brief article I wrote in January 2017:
https://josephkaminski.org/2017/01/27/nazi-punching/
And since I know you won't click that, here's a quote:
I, for one, think it’s pretty funny that a Neo-Nazi can cry about how much it hurt to get punched in the face even though his entire political movement has the notion of limiting the rights and lives of countless people.
Goodnight, and goodbye.
@trwnh I encourage you to actually sit down and take a diversity series or certification course. Your lack of understanding on the terminology I'm using is allowing you to confuse me with some idiocratic "everyone's opinion matters" centrist mindset.
@trwnh and in case the real definition of "safe space" wasn't clear, as I'm still slightly offended you (like many others) jump into how that word sucks.
A safe space means someone or somewhere that open thoughts are accepted (may be critiqued) but are tolerated as long as they do not hurt anyone. A student in a hyper-Christian family going to a school counselor to tell them they believe they are LGBT and cannot tell their family would expect to be in a "safe space". Same if they were atheist.
@trwnh also, derogatory - showing a critical or disrespectful attitude - I'm sure you wouldn't tell me the words "f*ggot", "r*tard", etc. are not derogatory words. All words used against McCain, in this example, on this website through "shitposting". Your lack of humanity is generally disturbing, and your understanding of toxicity is limited to your Tajfel-induced ingrouping.
@josephkaminski If you saw those words used against anyone, McCain included, you could report them at any time and those users would be suspended for homophobia and ableism. The fact that you bring them up only incidentally leads me to doubt you actually saw them.
@trwnh Why else would I be writing a long-winded, god-damned argument at 1 in the morning about a social media platform? For fun? I saw them and much worse. I do not understand what you mean by incidentally when they have a logical reason to be brought up.
@josephkaminski If it's 1 in the morning, I'd suggest you get some sleep.
@trwnh sleep schedules are weird, aren't they? Especially when you work evening/early morning jobs. I suppose you're too privileged to know that, though (if we're using your definition).
@trwnh I am not the one who claimed the word "derogatory" suddenly becomes a clear signal of politics when I am referring to what the actual definition of "derogatory" actually means. You're literally pulling at straws. Stop that. #SaveTheTurtles
@trwnh and on one final note, you saying that logic and reasoning are weaknesses to be exploited by those who don't believe in them leads me to believe that you do not believe in logic and reasoning and would rather act toxic before people can act toxic to you.
@josephkaminski No; I am saying that there can be no debate with dishonest people. You can't debate fascists. You can't debate bigots. You can't debate these people because they will say whatever is necessary to sway the audience, irrespective of truth or sound logic.
@trwnh I am sorry, but you are pulling at straws. I never said you can debate with fascists or bigots. Based on what you're messaging me, however, I cannot debate or reason with whatever you believe you are. Sociopolitical echo chambers are not fun, and neither are Us vs Them ingrouping.