Joseph KaminskiNot really understanding Mastodon at this point. It claimed to be anti-harassment, yet I've seen some horrifying messages about McCain and his family since he died. It claimed to be an alternative to Twitter, yet every damn message I see on the timelines say "birdsite" (why mention what you're supposedly trying to get away from?). I really don't see purpose of the site if its foundation is compromised/contradicted by its general users. @Gargron
@Gargron The Wil Wheaton drama coupled with the hoards of John McCain "shitposting" (honestly some of the rudest messages I've ever seen on social media) really turned me off from the so-called good qualities this website offered. Corporatized Twitter sucks, but mob-fueled digitized verbal lynching is not a proper or coherent rival. Maybe social media in general needs revitalization and not half-hearted attempts at becoming the "next big thing" in the short attention span of the internet.
@Gargron To summarize, the site has evolved from a good-natured alternative into a "you're either with us or fuck you" social club that seems to exist solely to make fun of those who don't agree, constantly bring up "the problems" with "birdsite", and circlejerk pointless information for the rip-off "toots" that rarely exist as the site is split off into different sub-communities that do not seem to interact - yet all serve the same purpose.
@Gargron Also - basic sociology - when too many categories are created, those categories become worthless. The overuse of content warnings on this site break the overall flow of the timelines and creates a terrible situation where "if everything is content warning'd, then nothing is content warning'd at all."
Eugen Rochko@josephkaminski I'm not sure why you're tagging me personally like I am in control of every single being on this platform, but all of your complaints are solved by following different people. Just find yourself people who love McCain and hate content warnings. Probably on a less left-leaning server than mine.
@Gargron Still not sure exactly how tagging works. Was simply replying in a thread format. The problem doesn't rely on a following issue. You cannot deny the majority of the server broke from what the site claims to exist for. It's less complaining and more genuine concern/confusion for what the hell is supposed to be the figurative "norm" here.
@josephkaminski The source of the issue seems to be that you're expecting a consistent "norm" from Mastodon as a whole when every server has a slightly different norm and culture. There are servers where people wanted Wil Wheaton to stay, for example.
@Gargron Once again, I'd like to honestly apologize if I'm coming off as argumentative or just a dick in general. I'm more frustrated with what I've generally seen on here. I'm not anti-CW or pro-McCain, but rather seeing it from a different perspective. What I've seen on just about any political topic here in local/federated timelines and in general searches are horrifyingly more toxic than Twitter (or birdsite, if we're using code).
Chris (moving to jade.moe)@josephkaminski @Gargron I'll be straight with you: the fediverse doesn't have a "norm". Rather, there is a massive federation of communities with different rules and ways of interacting, with there being a few baseline things people have agreed upon. Yet within that there are some outliers, like mastodon.social, which due to it's nature as where people first migrate becomes a spot where people need to learn how to interact on the platform and the size facilitates a vast diversity in behaviors.
There are also sectors of the fediverse that throw out the baseline in favor of their own thing - and they tend to federate among themselves.
Some of these instance do engage in harassment tactics, but that's not something on the whole federation - just those servers.
There are also sectors of the fediverse that throw out the baseline in favor of their own thing - and they tend to federate among themselves.
Some of these instance do engage in harassment tactics, but that's not something on the whole federation - just those servers.
@brainblasted The problem now, in my mind, is that the so-called flagship operation (if it is the one where most people first migrate, then it must be the most known/most acceptable) is more toxic than the site it claims to be the alternative to. I don't understand the concept at that point. I feel as if I have to continuously apologize in this thread for writing my thoughts, which I've never had to do anywhere else, honestly.
@josephkaminski you're thinking about it in a different PoV than how it works.
m.s is the flagship because it was the biggest, and is just the one people hear about. Articles mistakenly link it because it's the one they are likely linked in discussions, and due to every other platform being centralized mastodon.social has been mistakenly equated with "Mastodon". It has very little to do with what's acceptable. In fact, m.s is largely recognized in greater fedi as one of the worst instances to be on due to the pains of it being the largest.
Greater fedi can be much nicer than m.s, but m.s is what people first know - it's a frustrating paradox due to the inherent differences from common platforms.
m.s is the flagship because it was the biggest, and is just the one people hear about. Articles mistakenly link it because it's the one they are likely linked in discussions, and due to every other platform being centralized mastodon.social has been mistakenly equated with "Mastodon". It has very little to do with what's acceptable. In fact, m.s is largely recognized in greater fedi as one of the worst instances to be on due to the pains of it being the largest.
Greater fedi can be much nicer than m.s, but m.s is what people first know - it's a frustrating paradox due to the inherent differences from common platforms.
@brainblasted I appreciate your response as it not only explains what I've been concerned/frustrated with but also offers information besides "go away" like Eugen did. I keep apologizing, and I hope it is realized that I mean it.
Strypey@josephkaminski welcome to the #fediverse! There is no "norm" and there is no "here". There are many "heres", each of which has it's own "norms". Unlike users in the #DataFarms, users on each of the "heres" can interact with each other if they choose. To start a new thread, just type something into your posting box, without replying to an existing post. If you @mention anybody, they will get your post in their notifications. With great power yada yada.
@strypey you're about three days late, pal. Thanks for being the fifth or so person to remind me they didn't understand I meant "norm" as in this specific server.
@josephkaminski woah, sorry. Just trying to be welcoming and make sure the basics had been covered. I'm unarmed, don't shoot ;-P
@strypey Apologies. This thread was poisoned long before you came.
@josephkaminski yeah I saw that (after I posted my reply). I wanted to give you a huge (in a supportive, non-creepy way ;) People can be so bloody-minded sometimes.
@Gargron and there doesn't need to be a political divide between the McCain thing. I don't like him either, but the general consensus here was more toxic and hateful than any other platform I'm on. That's the problem, not the "following" concern. I apologize if I'm coming off as hateful, but criticism is important.
A Tray of Bees@josephkaminski @Gargron mastodon.social (m.soc) happens to also be where people who got account suspensions on Twitter and are fed up for that particular reason wind up--because it's the top hit on Google. So invariably you'll discover that includes a fair share of shitposters. It's not reflective of m.soc's userbase--it's just that shitposters tend to be loud and annoying and post frequently.
@trayofbees Ironically, having a differing complaint/breaking from the hive mind is the most "action" I've seen here in terms of communication. See the apology I just posted to Eugen.
@josephkaminski You can take one of two tracks if you're not a low-effort liberal who is mostly into social media for communism memes and talking about your butthole---avoid poli (because really, nobody ever converts someone's opinion about anything poli on social media), or you find an instance (liberdon? qoto maybe?) where more intellectual discourse is encouraged
@josephkaminski full instance list is at instances.social have a look
@trayofbees Thank you for having a legitimate answer and helpful attitude. At this point I wasn't expecting one.
@josephkaminski There's a debate about instance-only conversations (which isn't possible right now) but would be the equivalent of sever-only channels where the messages don't get federated, so people can self-sort to instances where they feel more at home
@josephkaminski You just cannot have a 20-something far left person with a 40 year old centrist on the same social media feed together and expect that to ever happen and not end in tears, no matter how much both people promise they'll be nice.
@josephkaminski btw your account on any mastodon instance already comes with powerful filtering and domain blocks--you don't need to wait for an admin to use them. You can drop the toots or just hide them (I prefer to always drop them). The toot gets replaced with "filtered" and no buttons to click, so you know the filter's working. We all had to reach for that during the wilw episode
@trayofbees Trust me - I tried the filtering. Every time I added a new one people found a new way to say or spell McCain. McCain turned into McCainposting and then Cainposting and then just nicknames and random words associated with him (ie. Maverick). If I filtered every damn word what would be left? There's none of this word-play association on any other social site I've been apart of.
@josephkaminski Yeah---that's mostly because of bofa shitposters.
That's why bofa was silenced by a bunch of other instances (I added it to mine as well).
@trayofbees I stand firm with saying what I witnessed during the McCain issue was worse here than any other social media site. Any. Even the disgustingly cancerous side of Reddit and 4chan. I don't believe the issue here is political division or dichotomy but rather the general level of hivemindedness that occurred for that specific topic. I've not interacted until now; I am only discussing what I have seen. I "retooted(?)" something about a week ago that really summarizes how I'm feeling.
@josephkaminski Yeah I saw that shit too.
Wait until HRC dies. That will be fun.
people complained about twitter being toxic and I thought we were all on the same page regarding that. however, Just As Expected, what they actually meant by that was not "twitter is toxic", but "twitter is toxic because they're not me"
and now mastodon.social is being made into a "you're either with us or against us" situation being shoved onto our faces when to be honest most of us just really want an escape from real life and not a continuation of it
credit: @victor_season
@trayofbees @victor_season (since I can't for the life of me figure out how to link to another "toot" yet, apparently.)
@josephkaminski part of what Twitter does with timeline grooming is algorithmic separation of users based on political likes (of course this doesn't work when news events occur and everyone swarms on a celeb/news tweet). Mastodon likely will self-segregate if it is to scale.
@josephkaminski The thing with twitter is that it sells data aggro and predictive analytics about you as a person based on your interaction with the platform. On Masto you just post stuff. We already had one instance today do some creep "experiment" and a bunch of instances blocked him for it.
@trayofbees I absolutely dislike the corporatized aspects of Twitter, despite me using it in this conversation as a frame of reference (as this is the supposed alternative). I've written about the sociopolitical echo chamber of modern social media extensively, and I partially blame big dollar bills for that evolution (or de-evolution, I suppose). I do appreciate you continuing to talk to me, though! It seems Eugen doesn't care enough.
@josephkaminski Eugen is in Germany and it's like 7AM there so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@trayofbees his last "toot" was 3 minutes ago. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@josephkaminski i dont think he was sleeping through this evening, since he was tooting all evening for me (and it's 00:36 here)... so he's not fresh as a daisy right now
@trayofbees all is well, just swimming in the sea of thoughts right now. I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. I suppose I'll have to explore the instances page you linked me and give those a shot.
Fellixe@josephkaminski @trayofbees Another good resource is @fedi It's an account that hourly posts basic info about random instances.
I'm new Mastodon but from what I've seen staying in .social is like hanging out at the airport/train station/etc. and watching new arrivals. Interesting mix but eventually I'll find a home.
@josephkaminski try moving your account to liberdon.com and pruning your follow list... CSV exports are in settings, you can re-import them into your other account. See if their TL looks "cleaner"
@trayofbees @[email protected] this description summarizes what I'm seeing atm.
@josephkaminski @seanmunger Instance blocks/filter plus flat out suspending/blocking/muting the shitposting accounts clears out the timeline if you're aggressive enough. Most of that nastiness you were seeing--when you go look at the tooter's TL on their instance page usually you'll find a long stream of shitposting
infinite love ⴳ@josephkaminski ...are you serious? simply "being rude" in the abstract isn't against the rules, john mccain was unequivocally a terrible person, and using the cw feature is a courtesy just like adding an email subject line
@trwnh did you not see the majority of the posts that I did? It went further than "being rude". Treating someone as entirely inhumane for being a "terrible person" (which I agree, he was) does not make you self-righteous and good-hearted.
@josephkaminski well, that's a matter where many people will disagree with you. there's no love lost for war criminals, bigots, and oppressors.
@trwnh it is entirely hypocritical of someone to treat their enemies in such a way when they would freak out if their enemies treated them the same way. You do not have to respect someone to be humane in discussion. I do not like McCain, but the "I wish I could have killed him before brain cancer could", "fuck him and his entire bloodline", and even worse thoughts that I will not write here is not a good way to show that you do not like somebody. That is the first step to an Us vs Them society.
@josephkaminski Here's a counterargument: marginalized people are already treated terribly, and they owe no civility to their oppressors. As for the last bit, well... "the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." Conflict between oppressor and oppressed didn't just spring into being because some smarmy old todger died. Your analysis is lacking any consideration for power dynamics and "punching up".
@trwnh being the bigger person takes effort, being the bigger person through proving the other side wrong with logic, reasoning, and humanity changes the world. Putting a communist symbol in a username to be edgy and calling someone a derogatory word (ironically on a safe-space site dedicated to CW) takes no effort and makes no difference in the world and only leads to distancing "power dynamics" among different sides.
@josephkaminski Logic and reasoning are weaknesses to be exploited by those who don't believe in them. The fact that you think things are "edgy" or "derogatory" and that you call this a "safe space" are clear signals of your politics, so I'll only say this: there is no irony here. It's not toxic or harassing to speak negatively of a terrible person among comrades, especially not a dead one.
@trwnh The political "definition" of safe space, the one you are clinging onto and believe I am referring to, is not the actual definition. I am actually a registered Secular Safezone and LGBT Advocacy Safespace recipient as I took intensive diversity courses to earn said placards. You're failing to see that I am not right-wing. I'm an educator with a passion for diversity and inclusion - something mastadon's social server has failed to believe in.
@josephkaminski I'm going to speak plainly: no joke about McCain's death can ever be remotely as toxic as even a *fraction* of what most of us received daily on Twitter. There is simply no comparison to be made. "Diversity and inclusion" cannot include bigots and abusers, point blank.
@trwnh and I never claimed it should. Diversity + inclusion means looking at the perspective of bigots and abusers, pointing out what is directly wrong with them, + educating people about the aspects of tolerance + humanity that would eradicate said bigotry through diversity, multiculturalism, open thoughts. Ironically enough, you're fighting with me over a thought - a direct consequence of ingrouping. And I'll reiterate - what I saw on Mastodon that day was worse than any other social platform.
@josephkaminski You are clearly privileged enough to not see what we have seen, if you're still claiming that it's "worse than any other social platform".
Ingrouping has nothing to do with this. And bigotry must be challenged directly -- it is not enough to preach tolerance.
@trwnh ah, yes. Privilege. Another political phrase you're using despite not having a clear grasp of the actual diversified definition. Ingrouping has everything to do with this, by the way. And I'll say it clearly so you stop pulling at that straw: I've never said preach tolerance towards bigotry. I've said preach tolerance against bigotry. Don't give them ammo of you being a shitlord. Becoming the bigot doesn't make you the better person.
@josephkaminski Respectability politics have never worked. Even the most inoffensive comments will attract abuse, as long as you're a target. Do you think these people care about "being the better person"? https://mastodon.social/media/EOGvDXpYbQJQzfGbMvE https://mastodon.social/media/Y_2T_10wnzj9uty0iCY
@josephkaminski And that's a small sample of what you can expect when you're prominently and visibly a member of a marginalized community.
@trwnh and this brings us directly back to ingrouping and how "these people" exist.
I will reiterate, once again, I DO NOT KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THE IDEA THAT I SAID RESPECT THESE PEOPLE. I have not advocated sitting down with a cup of tea with literal nazis. I have said don't give them bait to work with and turn it into propaganda to show others how they are the victims. (THEY ARE NOT).
Preaching tolerance to AVOID PEOPLE BECOMING BIGOTS. You're straw-grabbing has evolved into star-gazing.
@josephkaminski the last thing I'm going to say (because I'm not interested in continuing this conversation further) is that **simply existing** is enough "bait" for them to work with. have a nice night.
@trwnh If you do not believe my stance on issues concerning bigotry, here's a brief article I wrote in January 2017:
https://josephkaminski.org/2017/01/27/nazi-punching/
And since I know you won't click that, here's a quote:
I, for one, think it’s pretty funny that a Neo-Nazi can cry about how much it hurt to get punched in the face even though his entire political movement has the notion of limiting the rights and lives of countless people.
Goodnight, and goodbye.
@trwnh I encourage you to actually sit down and take a diversity series or certification course. Your lack of understanding on the terminology I'm using is allowing you to confuse me with some idiocratic "everyone's opinion matters" centrist mindset.
@trwnh and in case the real definition of "safe space" wasn't clear, as I'm still slightly offended you (like many others) jump into how that word sucks.
A safe space means someone or somewhere that open thoughts are accepted (may be critiqued) but are tolerated as long as they do not hurt anyone. A student in a hyper-Christian family going to a school counselor to tell them they believe they are LGBT and cannot tell their family would expect to be in a "safe space". Same if they were atheist.
@trwnh also, derogatory - showing a critical or disrespectful attitude - I'm sure you wouldn't tell me the words "f*ggot", "r*tard", etc. are not derogatory words. All words used against McCain, in this example, on this website through "shitposting". Your lack of humanity is generally disturbing, and your understanding of toxicity is limited to your Tajfel-induced ingrouping.
@josephkaminski If you saw those words used against anyone, McCain included, you could report them at any time and those users would be suspended for homophobia and ableism. The fact that you bring them up only incidentally leads me to doubt you actually saw them.