@maple @mastodonmigration @snikket_im @ghouston @sbb

Okay, but even if you only need to be a little bit of a geek, WHY would anyone WANT to self-host a #Skikket server?

Why would anyone want to self-host any server?

probably still requires you to deal with certificates

I believe the Snikket server software automatically handles obtaining and renewing the necessary certificates.

Why not just use #Signal, which is totally FREE and already set up and where they have done all the work for you?

Why not just use WhatsApp? What advantage does Signal have over WhatsApp?

Most non-techie types will not have either of those

Running a Snikket server is not for most non-techie types. One mildly techie type can run a Snikket server for all their non-techie friends and family.

Most #XMPP clients these days either completely refuse to talk to a server that has only a self-signed certificate

For what it's worth, there is a setting in Snikket Android, at least, to tell it not to trust the operating system's certificate authorities. It notes that if you choose this setting, "All certificates must be manually approved". But if you plan on recommending manually approving self-signed certificates to your non-techie friends, I suspect this is highly likely to reduce their security, not increase it. There's a good reason for apps not to even allow that as an option.

or will not allow anything other that the most basic text messaging (no sharing of files or photos - #Gajim is an example of such a client)

I share files and photos using Gajim. I think maybe this used to require a plugin, but now it's part of Gajim itself, so no special set-up procedure is required.

And where is the instructional video that walks you through setting up a Skikket server, for those that might be willing to try but that are visual learners? Is there even a demo video that gives some idea what a running Skikket instance looks like?

Not that I'm aware of, but they might be open to the suggestion.

I get it, running your own Skikket server is very appealing to certain techie types; to them it's a fun project to set up. But will they still want to be running it five or ten years from now?"

If that's how they chat with their friends and family, then probably, yes.

@TMakarios @mastodonmigration @snikket_im @ghouston @sbb "Not everyone will be able to self-host a Snikket server, but I don't think you need to be an ultra geek any more." Okay, but even if you only need to be a little bit of a geek, WHY would anyone WANT to self-host a #Skikket server? It's still some effort and it still requires you have a domain and it probably still requires you to deal with certificates (which is a real headache if you don't have and don't want a web server). Why not just use #Signal, which is totally FREE and already set up and where they have done all the work for you?

If you go to the Snikket quick-start guide one of the first things it says is:

Requirements

To follow this guide you will need:

A server running Linux that you have SSH or terminal access to
A domain name that you can create subdomains on

Most non-techie types will not have either of those, and even if they have a Linux server they may not want to expose it to the Internet. Or, of course, Snikket provides Snikket Hosting at "$6 USD or less, per month" for up to 10 active users. WHY would I want to spend that when Signal is completely free, and a much larger percentage of people have actually heard of Signal?

And I again want to mention that certificate business. Most #XMPP clients these days either completely refuse to talk to a server that has only a self-signed certificate, or will not allow anything other that the most basic text messaging (no sharing of files or photos - #Gajim is an example of such a client). So unless you want to settle for text messaging only, you have to go through the hassle of obtaining, and then periodically renewing a certificate, probably from Let's Encrypt. And as part of that process they want you to have a web server running that they can access. Yes, there is an alternate method that involves monkeying with DNS records but now you are REALLY getting into the weeds. Most people are either not running a web server, or if they are they are they may not want to make it publicly accessible. This is as much a fault of Let's Encrypt as it is of XMPP clients but it is still a HUGE complication that most people have no desire to deal with

And where is the instructional video that walks you through setting up a Skikket server, for those that might be willing to try but that are visual learners? Is there even a demo video that gives some idea what a running Skikket instance looks like?

I get it, running your own Skikket server is very appealing to certain techie types; to them it's a fun project to set up. But will they still want to be running it five or ten years from now? Signal will probably still be around (though nothing is guaranteed) but a lot of the people who think setting up their own server is fun now will have moved on. And for the 99% of the population that has absolutely zero interest in running their own server, Signal is a much better and totally free alternative that requires very little effort to set up. If they did not require a phone number they'd be perfect (and while they do require a phone number to get started, it doesn't necessarily have to be YOUR cell phone's number, not that that makes it much better).

#selfHosting

@pixelschubsi I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. *I* understand that #Skikket is a server and needs to be set up, but what I keep hammering on is that a typical user won't have the foggiest clue how to do that with any of the current #xmpp server programs. A typical user wants to install an app and get on with their life, and yes many of them will just blindly enter their phone number when requested, but not all will. And again, I agree that if someone else wants to set up a server and be your tech support it can be a breeze for you, although if they are not all that Linux savvy they may not care much for the current server choices.

The only time I ever had an xmpp server that was reasonably easy to install and use was #OpenFire, and that was only because it was installed using a script that actually set up several programs at the same time. But that was MANY years ago (probably more than 15, maybe 20 years) and was before certificates became a thing on xmpp servers. But as I recall it had a decent web interface (or maybe that was pa\rt of that package of programs), anyway I only ran that package for maybe two or three years and then that project died. But even that would be more than a typical user wants to deal with (and yes I had a nodding acquaintance with Linux even back then, but I don't know a whole lot more about it today than I did back then, it mostly frustrates the hell out of me whenever I encounter some problem).

Almost nobody running a xmpp server wants to invite anyone and everyone to use it, but even if those open servers exist, few people have heard of them and in a group of friends or family someone would surely object that they know nothing about that server, it could go down without warning at any time or the operators could be intercepting messages, etc. #Signal, at least, is big enough that it's probably not going to fall of the face of the earth without warning (and if it does the tech press will be telling you why and if it's likely to come back) and it does have a privacy policy. So running your own server is preferable and my point all along is that they need to make that MUCH easier for non-nerds. If the server uses text-based or yaml configuration files you are lost already. Users want web-based configuration (think something like Home Assistant, which I do not use but I have noticed it is getting very popular, which never would have happened if they did not have that superb web interface).

Snikket may in fact be most of the way there, but as far as I know it is not cross platform, and it could definitely stand to have a better introductory video than that one I was watching. BUT you could have the easiest server in the world to install and it's not going to motivate a user that wants to be up and running in two or three minutes, using a platform their friends and family have at least heard of. And yes I know, those are the kind that will happily give up their phone number, and it burns me to no end that people don't care about that, but they don't. And then if you have xmpp servers that also require that, you have really just taken away any reason someone should prefer xmpp over Signal.

In my mind before you go promoting xmpp as an alternative to Signal you need to have a server that preferably is cross-platform, but at the very least is drop-dead easy to set up (you should be able to show how to set it up and add users in a video of 3 minutes or less, 5 tops), and it should not require the user to know anything about certificates. It should not require a domain if you just want to use it locally, or tell you how to use it with a free service such as freedns.afraid.org or DuckDNS or something like that. It should not tell you that you need to use any paid service (Signal is free!). It should not assume you need any kind of group chat (maybe you just want one-to-one messaging) but it should let you send images and files to another user. It should not assume you want to federate with any other xmpp server (in case you are running a private friends/family server). In other words it needs to be as easy to work with as something like Home Assistant.

And for the people that absolutely will not set up their own server (and don't have a tech-savvy relative) then there needs to be a service they can use THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE A PHONE NUMBER (otherwise why not just use Signal?) and that has the ability to scale and that has a decent privacy policy (and it will still need to reach critical mass before people will use it). And of course that all costs money (again, Signal is free!). We actually used to have something more or less like that in the form of Google Talk but they shut that around 2016 if I recall correctly.

Anyway those are the hurdles the xmpp proponents need to think about and overcome if they really want to "sell" anyone outside their immediate friends/family circles on using xmpp. Speaking from experience, we used to have an xmpp server set up in our friends/family group (using Prosody after that OpenFire setup went away, only because we found some good instructions in some guy's blog that are now no longer online) but as with many things it became harder and harder to deal with and the when the xmpp clients started demanding valid certificates just to send photos and files that just killed it, and everyone went to just using email and then later to Signal. So that is not something I personally would ever want to get back into unless I was pretty certain the process of setting up and running a server had become MUCH easier.