@cks Allegiance to ultimate evil can explain a lot of design choices out there. Incrementally piling stuff atop stuff probably covers most of the rest.

As a longtime #fvwm user I was hoping maybe #xwayland would let fvwm drive the display, but fallback positions are either ignoring Wayland entirely as long as I can or looking for which of its solutions will torque me off least.

okay, stupid thing. for reasons I don't see, #x11 just started *working*. Drivers are there just as I expected. Did I set a config in /etc/rc.conf?

And #FVWM now no longer opens xterm terminal windows. This:
comment out the line
'Silent Key Super_R A A Exec exec $[infostore.terminal]'
in */usr/local/share/fvwm3/default-config/config*

SSD not CSD

The nice thing about that period, is that everything was keyboard driven and the mouse was only used when it was handy. The great thing about that period, is that you could do everything literally everything with your keyboard and the user interfaces were much more simple to design, modify and to expand, because it was much easier for the programmers to determine what you want based upon the fact that you are using the keyboard as input.

It started to go downhill when the scrollwheel was added.

Three buttons were enough.

Everything degenerated to CSD, while SSD is the proper way to go, and we now have hacks to force SSD in different Linux distributions. Hopefully the BSD flavours have such hacks too

If you still want SSD as much as possible, you need to use fluxbox as your DM / WM and use the considerable tweaks that @rl_dane has suggested to me in another toot in this thread, get firefox to behave normally again. You should also disable all the silly LLM stuff in ffox...
Im going to put the tweaks at work here on this SBC Pi5, I'm currently on

@tragivictoria  @Radio_Azureus @magitian

#GUI #TUI #design #40years #fvwm #twm #Xorg #programming #technology #DE #desktop #environment #WM #window #manager #FluxBox #XFCE #KDE #GNOME #design

You're absolutely right there are worse things occuring.

But the following is a bad CSD

CSD In Firefox mobile

• Something odd was changed in the user interface; the sidebar it's actually the menu that you get when you tap on the double point in the lower right corner, was transformed into this massive monstrosity which covers the whole Android display.
• It distracts
• All the extra information is useless
• it takes many more GPU Cycles to throw that big thing on the screen
• no one was consulted within the user base would tell them that it just makes everything worse, because you don't see anything underneath

CSD Enshittification Factor

Instead of going on I'll just stick with what that still works I may need to go all the way back to that MX Linux distro which at least feels familiar and use as many clients that don't abuse CSDs

One more question; what example do you have of something that's worse than client-side decorations

IMHO the one I just referred too, is a very bad one

Quote Wikipedia:

Limitations
If the application hangs, the user cannot close it by clicking the close button in the window frame.[12]

BTW to prove your point;

It took me 15 minutes to compose this lousy small message on the Android. It would have taken me 120 seconds on one of the desktops running here
All because of horrific user interfaces low free RAM and bad CSD choices on the Android

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client-side_decoration?wprov=sfla1

#GUI #TUI #CSD #design #40years #fvwm #twm #Xorg #programming #technology #user #environment #DE #desktop #environment #WM #window #manager #FluxBox #XFCE #KDE #GNOME #design

@rl_dane @dendrobatus_azureus @magitian

GUI TUI

Your response sheds a clear light on what's wrong, deeply wrong in this matter.

I stick to DE and window managers which feel and look like they're from decades ago. In those I don't face the horrible points you stated. I glanced at the theme on it's own and did not take these points into account.

From the perspective of UI design, many GUI's have been deliberately broken with the thin and disappearing scroll bars which are a *PITA and the removal of the menu bar by default in this bloody browser I work in ATM within standardnotes. There is so much broken in those things I would need to type a whole book full, yet very few would read it.
I always find workarounds which is what I stated in the previous stansa.

You're right that 40 years of meticulous UI design, craft and tweaking should be cherished and expanded. I wonder why this trend started

I loved working in fvwm & twm and did it for years

Are there still Window and Desktop Managers left which are currently maintaned and follow the priciples as strickt as possible? What do you think of KDE in this light?

Note:
I use XFCE as my DE and love the other light one in the MX Linux distro FluxBox. The older it is the better I can fly thorugh it with my keyboard and windows behave in a standard way

@rl_dane @Radio_Azureus @magitian

#GUI #TUI #design #40years #fvwm #twm #Xorg #programming #technology #DE #desktop #environment #WM #window #manager #FluxBox #XFCE #KDE #GNOME #design