Mastodawn

https://overreacted.io/there-are-no-instances-in-atproto/

While having an extremely snobbish and arrogant tone, I think it makes some good points about separating hosting from viewing, which I think the usual #fediverse sort of conflates. And while the doesn't doesn't cover it, #atproto also has the unique feature of your data being relatively portable, largely absent in #fediverse.

#fediverse #atproto #bluesky #mastodon #lemmy #activitypub

There Are No Instances in atproto — overreacted

Like RSS and Google Reader.

On the other hand, the post largely glosses over the actual cost of running it, which Rob addresses above.

In fact, it entirely skips relays, which are so fundamental now, and in particular, that every #atproto app effectively needs to consume one.

(If your atproto app doesn't consume from a relay, it HAS an embedded relay, and in that case, god help your app's compute consumption).

#atproto #bluesky

#activitypub #fediverse #atproto #bluesky #mastodon #federated #protocols

Having said that, and also disliking the fact that it came out of corpo billionaire creators of twitter, I genuinely believe there's some good stuff to pick up from that protocol.

In particular, I think the coolest part of the architecture is server-independent (more like server-migratable) identity, which is kind of amazing.

Activitypub/fediverse should adopt https://helge.codeberg.page/fep/fep/ef61/ soon, and I feel like that'd be even better than what atproto has if I understand correctly.

FEP-ef61: Portable Objects - Fediverse Enhancement Proposals

Portable ActivityPub objects with server-independent IDs.

Hate to mention people out of the blue, but @ricci @cwebber if you can vet this info it'd be great. You two seem like the experts in these two topics, and I don't want to get stuff wrong. Thanks.

Christine Lemmer-Webber 3d ago

@innocentzero @ricci somewhat relevant https://social.coop/@cwebber/116782178524774816

https://social.coop/@smallcircles/116792896530026124

@innocentzero @ricci

Just had the most horrifying UX parsing this thread in Mastodon's microblog feed, likely causing 10x more network overhead than needed, and replied to @cwebber quote:

Stepping away from ATProto vs. AP I was most intrigued by @dialecticalmusings comment:

> People arguing about moderation and community building often have fundamentally differing visions for the political economy of the Fediverse, but those differences never get unpacked, so people end up talking past each other.

What is never answered well is: What is fediverse? I'd argue it is just a common utility word like internet and web, denoting a communication medium.

What do you do with this medium is then the next question. Well, the power of ActivityPub allows us "to extend constructs of society online" to support our daily needs.

But on the basis of some warped microblog abstraction turned into a pretzel by bolting on features to hang everything off, this is not possible.

@innocentzero @ricci @cwebber @dialecticalmusings

If you take as the definition of social networking: Any direct and indirect human interaction between people.

And add ActivityPub in the full power of its conceptual architecture: A social graph of addressible actors that exchange activities with an object payload, fully extensible.

Then you have raw power to model about any online service where people interact with each other.

As part of my elaboration on Social experience design (SX) I coined "Personal social networking" as the exercise on how we can translate social networking practices we do for 1,000's of years offline, and think about how to seamlessly extend them with online support.

We talk so much how Moderation is essential, and there must be a Block and Suspend button etcetera.. but where do I have this offline in real social situations? Somehow social happens differently there. There's no moderator looking over my shoulder if I walk the streets of my town.

mojala 1d ago

@smallcircles @innocentzero @ricci @cwebber @dialecticalmusings Off topic: Harassment happens in real life too and might have even graver consequences than the online kind for people. And usually in bigger cities somebody has a camera on you. Ostensibly laws and police should be protecting you but really ymmv quite a bit. Finally, inclusive and safe spaces don’t happen by accident but thru a concerted act of effort and design. And many people don’t even want these around.

@mojala @innocentzero @ricci @cwebber @dialecticalmusings

🫧 Social coding commons

Yes, agree with all you say. I followed-up on that in the next toot. It is just that now we are inventing universal ways to do moderation, and that is just not a good fit as well.

We have a fediverse that represents an app environment that offers microblogging, an app domain. That is the technical implementation, the technosphere. Then we project all kinds of different modes of communication on top of that, that happen in different social contexts, with different audiences, purposes, and interests. The sociosphere.

We built a technosphere first, and then cram the sociosphere into it. That's the opposite to how it should be: tech should support people's needs, and be modeled accordingly.

There cannot be a concerted act of effort and design if the straitjacket of a microblog is already a given.

Take block/suspend. Ostracisation and silencing. Should be reserved for bad actors, yet get broader use that's really anti-social.

mojala 1d ago

@smallcircles @innocentzero @ricci @cwebber @dialecticalmusings Yeah sorry didn’t see it before tooting! I do disagree on blocking though - I wish people did it way more and without qualms. I don’t think it would be anti-social unless taken to the utmost extreme.

@mojala @innocentzero @ricci @cwebber @dialecticalmusings

Blocking as an app feature constitutes a power tool: handle with care. If present then either good app design will guide its usage, or healthy social norms.

My observation is that on a fediverse that mashes all modes of communication together, and in a rushed society where everyone is dealing with severe info overload a kind of 'human laziness' creeps in, where social engagement as it would usually happen offline, is skipped and people liberally slam the block button.

I have had a few occasions where people I considered to be online friends, with years of communication history, suddenly blocked me and - after reading and rereading our comms - I didn't have the faintest clue why.

The block then makes it impossible to ask them "hey, did I offend you in any way?", and apologize. No human interaction possible. Not social. Inhumane.

In offline setting such situation nearly never happens. Walking past someone as if they are air.

@mojala @innocentzero @ricci @cwebber @dialecticalmusings

On one such occasion it was clearly the other person misreading, misinterpreting some text I typed, that led them to break all connections across multiple channels on a whim. Yet it took me 3 days trying to approach other people to convey that to them "hey, you were too hasty reader", to get things restored.

We talk about safe spaces and all that, and in terms of moderation - not seeing fascists and dorks on our timeline - this works well, if you're on a good instance. But the culture of our in-group that is being fostered, and is influenced by the feature set of the app, has a big influence too.

I found that on the surface there's a kind of happy joy joy we are all family vibe. But just below that there's a very harsh parasocial crust, and in any conversation you have to beware of all kinds of implicit no-no's or someone will be offended. I've mentioned that comms on the fedi is like walking through a minefield on eggshells.