tante> The use of AI Coding Assistants in software development is as of now widely regarded as industry best practice
That is exactly why software development as an industry is such a shit show and explicitly not engineering.
PhDog
FandaSinAs a developer I would say "software engineering" is more about architecture of SW - how each component interact with another.
"software development" might be more about code, how to compile/build binary file and so on.
In my opinion, you have to do both to some level if you want to have a good, clean and sustainable code.
Lupino
tom jenningsLol, software engineers insist that software engineering exists, but in my 50 working years it's remained an open question as to what it was. So there's that.
an actual bus
happyborg@tante
Certainly, though I've not thought hard about the difference. I development is an activity that is part of a larger endeavour which could involve engineering.
I think we'd need to consider the meaning of engineering across different disciplines to define it well, and to distinguish it from particular software development components. But in general, more planning, design etc requires an engineering style approach.
An engineer is an intellectual as well as craft expert.
?
@dogfox
Orb 2069
2xfo
RussellSoftware Engineer would be equivalent to actual physical engineering, with science and models and studies and safety standards and regulations written in blood and professional associations and guilds.
Software Development is someone's employer telling them to build a birdhouse by nailing six boards together, wondering why it leaks and houses snakes instead of birds, then assuming that means they can or know how to build a full size house with HVAC, electrical, plumbing, etc.
Yrjänä Rankka 🌻
datarama@datarama @dogfox @tante Generally speaking no; business and 'industry' have done an excellent job ensuring they don't and may not. It "costs money" (that could be going into shareholder pockets) to do things right and a guild of knowledgeable workers threatens to create a power base that can stand up to them.
Some place like NASA might be the closest to Engineering in software because a mistake there can costs lives. Boeing may have been at one point. 🤷
Kravalerie
кеш'ю@dogfox @tante I studied software engineering, and it felt highly managerial and corporate bullshit-y, like you make a grand top-down design and order lesser people around telling them what to do. The curriculum was wholly centered around Microsoft enterprise products, like a first free dose offered to students so that they later persuade employers to buy their products. (Some professors let me do my own version of their assignments using LAMP and GNU Octave instead.) I prefer software development, which has more room for experiments, soloists and grassroots communities.
blackcoatMore generously, there is a discipline involved, and it has all the intricacy of engineering, if, possibly, without a rigorous theoretical background.
Design and deployment of software is not nothin'. But it seems more art than engineering -- but the corporate world abhors 'the arts', even their own -- and LLMs are a perfect example of attempts to reduce human artistry to rote.
To me the insistence, and the alleged need to gussy it up by calling it engineering detracts from the practice, which is pretty damn neato.
Cian O'Connor@tomjennings @blackcoat @dogfox @tante
There are practices which if followed would make software development a branch of engineering. But very few people follow them, the industry is entirely unregulated (unlike engineering) and almost no developers get any training in 'software engineering'.
If bridges were built by craftsmen who learnt on the job, working on the basis of superstition, vague rules of thumb and what felt good - we wouldn't be surprised if bridges regularly fell down.
I think that is an injustice to the discipline of superstitious craftsmen. The Iron Bridge is still up!
cuan_knaggs
Zimmie
innerand@dogfox
For me software engineering is for software that interacts physically with the world (e.g process control) and requires traditional engineering skills while software development happens more when business logic or a game is implemented (everything hat interacts just with other computers or the user)
@tante
For me software engineering is for software that interacts physically with the world (e.g process control) and requires traditional engineering skills while software development happens more when business logic or a game is implemented (everything hat interacts just with other computers or the user)
@tante
Käsekuchen
Ozzelot 
Frederic Thevenet@tante "industry best practice"
The term's been so badly abused by everyone -- from million-dollar consulting firms to every wanker with a podcast -- and for so long, that, yeah, sure, they can have it if they want!
The term's been so badly abused by everyone -- from million-dollar consulting firms to every wanker with a podcast -- and for so long, that, yeah, sure, they can have it if they want!
@tante "industry best practice (derogatory)"
Gryphon Myers@gryphonmyers @fred @tante
Best for what purpose? What makes it better for that purpose? How does it do that better than other things?
People never think past "best". They just want "best".
Melanie@tante I tried to explain to a boss of mine wanting us to vibe code that it can possibly make what he asks for but not in the best way.
That as I’m architecting and building I might actually think of different things that would be better than the original design and something that can be extended more easily.
He still didn’t get it and said the AI was faster anyway. Then he spent an hour sharing his screen and arguing with AI about why it kept messing up what he was wanting it to code
Fish Id Wardrobe ⁂
Todd Knarr
Escape plan@tante
I don't think anyone serious would call ai code a best practice. It may be a cheap and "good enough" practice but anyone whis read ai code its not good.
I don't think anyone serious would call ai code a best practice. It may be a cheap and "good enough" practice but anyone whis read ai code its not good.
@tante I mean, windows server is considered valid by the industry, what more do you need lmao
Nyancient CthUwU@tante regarded by whom? I don't think I know anyone - including heavy LLM users - who would agree with that statement.
Laura
Sharp Cheddar Goblin@tante I was trained in software engineering. I used to do that. I have no fucking idea what "software development" is now, but it's not software engineering.
HumanBeing@tante As a former and long time tester (system, integration and manager), I saw a lot of shit shows but this is the absolute worse.
I saw my credit union do a major release (they didn't tell us, they just dropped it on us). It was and remains buggy as hell. I looked for a new CU but this seems "normal" and no system or minimally UAT testing could've been done. Country's going to hell ... or we're there.
Michael Downey 
@tante Eww, who is maing such a BS claim?
Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷@tante I'd argue that it is best practice because the industry (in particular) has been cooked for decades (with insufficient liability and safety regulations), so the causality is the other way around.
But the end result is a fucked up system, regardless.
poetaster@tante I would argue that 'software engineering ' is a misnomer. I have been guilty, in a software mode, of claiming to be an engineer. Bullshit. Perhaps the authors of the compiler. As a hardware 'developer' I am keenly aware of the limits of simulation, statistical methods. I do not order PCBs until I have built a prototype by hand. Simulation always fails in some more or less subtle way.
@tante whenever I hear that phrase used in a non-sarcastic context I puke in my mouth a little.
[empty]
Claudius
flere-imsaho 🇺🇦@tante so was the use of asbestos.
Pēteris Krišjānis@tante this is news to me, definitely not a practice where I work
Cap Ybarra
The Orange Theme@tante I refuse to take anything seriously from the idiots who think chat programs should use multiple gigabytes of memory. And fascists.
Matilda Love@tante according to a poll of all the people we haven't fired for not liking AI, everyone likes AI!
Neil E. Hodges@tante @matildalove The people who were fired should form a union. >:3
Murteza Yesil@matildalove
I met a shopify employee in one of the developer meetups I attended. When I asked about Shopify's AI usage policy, I was told that AI-tokens-used was one of the KPIs.
I met a shopify employee in one of the developer meetups I attended. When I asked about Shopify's AI usage policy, I was told that AI-tokens-used was one of the KPIs.
mossman
Jared White (ResistanceNet ✊)@tante Wow, that's a wild claim indeed. I won't ask who you're quoting because I need to watch my blood pressure. 😂
Our industry unfortunately was a bit of a shitshow *before* the assistants/agents elbowed their way in, and now it’s…so much worse. 😭
Guillotines and woodchippers"regarded as industry best practice" BY WHO?
Dźwiedziu@dzwiedziu @tante but most people in this industry are malevolent clowns so th- oh yeah OK that tracks