Mastodawn

I get the snark, but "page has to load in x time on expensive device in expensive city"... where is the human? Your audience isn't a phone.

I know I've said this a lot, but I think about the NHS digital design standards all the time, about that presentation where their lead designer talked about finding agent strings for devices like the Playstation Vita and Opera for the Nintendo DS in their logs. About how the NHS site had to work for those people too, no matter what.

https://wandering.shop/@fugueish/116695409129543894

wildfire 12h ago

"Your use case is, there's a fourteen year old in an emergency room at 3 AM. English is their second or maybe fourth language. They have a battered school Chromebook or a hand-me-down Android device that was the cheapest thing on the market six years ago or a PS Vita their parents don't even realize has a web browser, and they're trying to educate themselves in the middle of the single most terrifying night they've ever experienced. Your site needs to work for that person at that moment."

Kevin Boyd (he/him) 🇨🇦1d ago

@mhoye and hooking your website into the modern advertising industry immediately rules out that user. Their system can't handle all the popups and animations and JS.

@kboyd @mhoye Yet another reason to depend on exactly 0 external sources, especially tracking/advertising and keep JS to a minimum

dexternemrod 2h ago

And you might offer plain http (if no data needs to be protected) or at least older tls/ssl suites as fallback.

Kevin Boyd (he/him) 🇨🇦2h ago

@dexternemrod @mhoye well...... maybe, but https is also about protecting the user from malicious middlemen tampering with the request and response.

dexternemrod 1h ago

You're absolutely right. And this totally depends on the scenario ✌️

Fear and Tooting in Las Vegas 1d ago

@mhoye How great that we've re-implemented early 2000s web browsing.

"What do you mean, you're not on this OS with these things installed using this browser with these extensions on this monitor at this resolution? It works fine for me."

Robin Adams 1d ago

@steevmi1 @mhoye

⠠⠵ avuko 1d ago

@robinadams @steevmi1 @mhoye

@avuko @robinadams @steevmi1 @mhoye This. My first (and only) website I wrote in HTML in Notepad. It had thousands of words and loaded in an instant

@geolaw @avuko @robinadams @steevmi1 @mhoye I used to put "made with notepad.exe" at the bottom of some of my pages for laughs. It was a lie of course, I used a Mac

Ari Sovijärvi 1d ago

@steevmi1 I think the funniest part in a sad way is that the exact same thing repeats.

Back then IE won in the end and all the feedback was basically responded with "sorry, we don't care about your stupid Linux box with some browser no one has ever heard of".

At some point people woke up from the IE spell only to repeat the same problem, with the same exact mentality. Everyone has Chrome, we don't care about your non-standard setup that would happily eat valid HTML5.

@steevmi1 @mhoye I was worried about Cloudflare Turnstile on this front. For disabled people like me, it's finally an accessible CAPTCHA that we can actually use, and Cloudflare has been tracking bots on the internet for ages, so if anyone can identify them it'd probably be them. But I always did wonder, how much of this works on something that isn't modern Gecko or Chromium?

lesser scribe Anna of Leafrain, resident of the principality of Debian in its XIII-th era‮2h ago

@mhoye @steevmi1 @x0

it doesnt, https://hacktivis.me/articles/cloudflare-turnstile-webgl-fingerprinting

Cloudflare Turnstile requiring fingerprintable WebGL

Violet/Multi 1d ago

@mhoye Do you happen to remember any bits of information about the presentation itself? Tried to search on YT with parts of the quote or with "nhs design presentation", no luck

Graham Sutherland / Polynomial 1d ago

@multisn8 @mhoye look for GDS instead of NHS. if it's recent it might be CDDO or DSIT.

David Ross 1d ago

@multisn8 @mhoye I saw the story retold in a talk from @TheRealNooshu at PerfNow a couple years back (also excellent, on this subject, and from Gov.UK details) - https://youtu.be/VdBxrZB9V_c?t=1259

Looks like Terence Eden is who he cites it from, which I think makes this the corresponding post: https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2021/01/the-unreasonable-effectiveness-of-simple-html/

Bridging the Digital Divide using Web Performance | Matt Hobbs | performance.now() 2023

YouTube

Matt Hobbs 1d ago

@DRoss @multisn8 @mhoye yes I reference @Edent blog post a lot when talking about this subject. And there are still GOV.UK browser stats up on the terrible bird site related to game console usage for browsing the internet, i found it very common month to month, so very likely the same users I’d guess 🤷‍♂️

Matt Hobbs 1d ago

@DRoss @multisn8 @mhoye @Edent

Not that I want to link to the platform, but an example can be found here: https://x.com/TheRealNooshu/status/1577219757342064640

Search "#browserstats" and "@TheRealNooshu" for others if you are interested.

Now off for a shower, I feel dirty visiting that site! 🤣

Matt Hobbs (@[email protected]) (@TheRealNooshu) on X

11/26 Game console viewers, users: - Playstation 4 - 797 - Xbox - 413 - Nintendo WiiU - 9 - Playstation Vita - 7

X (formerly Twitter)

Richard 22h ago

@multisn8 @mhoye https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2021/01/the-unreasonable-effectiveness-of-simple-html/

The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

I've told this story at conferences - but due to the general situation I thought I'd retell it here. A few years ago I was doing policy research in a housing benefits office in London. They are singularly unlovely places. The walls are brightened up with posters offering helpful services for people fleeing domestic violence. The security guards on the door are cautiously indifferent to anyone…

Terence Eden’s Blog

chicating 1d ago

@mhoye heavy...but so meaningful.

BigHeadMode 1d ago

@mhoye cc @beeps

@BigHeadMode @mhoye Yeah, we have a similar story in GOV.UK-land as well.

https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2021/01/the-unreasonable-effectiveness-of-simple-html/

The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

I've told this story at conferences - but due to the general situation I thought I'd retell it here. A few years ago I was doing policy research in a housing benefits office in London. They are singularly unlovely places. The walls are brightened up with posters offering helpful services for people fleeing domestic violence. The security guards on the door are cautiously indifferent to anyone…

Terence Eden’s Blog

Mark T. Tomczak 1d ago

@mhoye "But why is she keeping something mission critical to her health in her unpublished tiktok reels" fuck you is why. We don't actually get to decide how users choose to use the system, we get to provide it, provide soft incentives to use it the way we intended, and keep it running when they get creative.

Now, is she going to be able to show the doctor what she needs to show them or is it going to be on you that she can't?

Sparrows 1d ago

@mark @mhoye I can sadly think of quite a few reasons why information is kept there.

Mark T. Tomczak 22h ago

@sparrows @mhoye This is another extremely good point. Sometimes people use the system in ways other than we anticipate because they have people in their lives that are inspecting the ways it's normally used.

@mark @sparrows @mhoye
Also, in an emergency, people will reach for familiar tools

Epic Null 5h ago

@sabik @mark @sparrows @mhoye Also in a mostly novel situation, you don't "reason out" where to look. You remember where you saw something similar before and go digging. Especially during an emergency where your brain is overwhelmed.

Will Berard 🫳🎤🫶1d ago

@mhoye
I'd never thought I would get teary eyed over NHS IT, but this is beautiful.

Sin Vega 1d ago

@mhoye even simple bullshit like how my bank started inserting an "interstitial page" between logging in and actually accessing the account, ie the only reason anyone has ever logged in to it. I don't even know what it says, incidentally, because my adblockers have always blocked it, and anything that actually mattered they would have to contact me about separately anyway. There are multiple ways they already do, even without whatever this page is.

But it adds a significant delay and pointless waste of data, energy, and time, that if they'd started it a few years earlier would have been enough that my laptop's battery died before I could book the tickets I needed at 2am, leaving me stranded hundreds of miles from home and probably costing me the job keeping me in that home

all to deliver what is obviously an advert for some bullshit or other I don't want and can't afford anyway

Gentleman Technologist 13h ago

@sinvega @mhoye ahh but that page appears on some proud product manager’s resume and LinkedIn as an accomplishment meeting a goal.

@mhoye THIS is the kind of thing that matters for the web. If you consider yourself an “open web advocate" & this isn't foundational to your advocacy, reconsider what you're actually advocating for.

Lincoln Russell 1d ago

@mhoye I had a forum user who was a Buddhist in a monastery using a PS Vita. I still think about them.

Paul Houle 18h ago

@linc @mhoye I miss my Vita!

Alexander The 1st 1d ago

@mhoye I'm reminded of a StackExchange question where someone was asking why USB 1.0 caught on so popularly when it was slower than a lot of cables at the time?

My comment in a thread back then was essentially "It reduced the amount of time someone was looking for the right cable to start the process, which meant they could take longer waiting on the end result, because they knew the cable and cable port would work.".

DNA schedule 16h ago

@AT1ST @mhoye this is the past through rose colored glasses. It was never all so simple back then. For the first maybe ten years, the normal thing you'd expect when you plugged a USB device into a Windows computer was that it would bring up a wizard to find the appropriate driver, which would fail, and you'd have to search the internet for "[name and brand of thing] USB driver," download and run an exe file, and pray.

Alexander The 1st 16h ago

@ryanprior @mhoye Oh, I know that is what was necessary - my point, however, is that you reduced the amount of time one spent trying to find the right port, or the right adapter, for a given cable to connect a device *to* the PC.

Especially as the number of USB ports on a given motherboard increased, and you no longer had to play "How do I get this cable to *this specific port*", and can now focus on "How do I get my computer to recognize the thing that is connected by the port?".

Alexander The 1st 16h ago

@ryanprior @mhoye Like, to be specific, the thing you mentioned happens the first time.

The thing I mentioned...happens *every* time you use the same device.

See, for example, having to accommodate a USB-Micro-B or USB-Mini-B port for a charger, or an iPhone charging port; those are always more harder than "I think I need to flip the USB-A connector twice, maybe thrice, before it'll fit in.".

<smitty />1d ago

@mhoye @babe I want this on a poster I can hang in my cube.

@smitty @babe then print it on a poster and hang it in your cube. Nobody can stop you.

Nantucket Lit 23h ago

@mhoye I've never bookmarked a toot before, but I bookmarked this one.

Netzblockierer 20h ago

@mhoye nodds in agreement

stgiga (they/them)

polygender_verify

@mhoye Joke's on you: I target older HTML5. Like my JS doesn't use shit like let of my own volition.

stgiga (they/them)

polygender_verify

@mhoye Also axing legacy shit IS an equity issue.

stgiga (they/them)

polygender_verify

@mhoye I think your quote IS real.

stgiga (they/them)

polygender_verify

@mhoye My friends in poverty can confirm this is a real thing.

stgiga (they/them)

polygender_verify

@mhoye Like let me just say this: if you make any mission-critical public service pages that don't need to do any handling of sensitive information, it's perfectly okay to have them load even on older devices AND not have HTTPS. For instance http://b3k.me/b3k.htm can run on fucking Gopher if you point an HTML5 browser at a Gopher server (I'm running that on SDF's) or even an intranet or even offline from a file or data URL. It can run on P2P browsers like Beaker, and could even run on the Tor network if I put it there (although I shudder to think of what the Dark Web would do with it, but I don't have to think of it because a certain troll already saw fit to use it as a way to obfuscate illegal data and told everyone how to on his blog on WordPress, so that's why I'm not going to be shipping a Tor version anytime soon) for some reason. It can run from synced cloud folders. It can run from a Mass Storage Device, Wii with HTTP, ESP32 with HTTP, a fucking vape, an RPi, Copyparty, FTP, or anything you can think of, so long as it's HTML5. But it has no issue on shit like Basilisk XPMod, PaleMoon, and InterWebPPC. So your ancient Macs and PCs can run it. Also it can run on Hurd and BSDs. Or Rhapsody's server. Maybe even Win9x and Win2K via Kernel shenanigans. LisaWorks can also host HTML so this code could be delivered from an Apple Lisa. Any of WindowsG Electronics' old PCs and "Universal Serial Bussies" could def host this damn thing. Some can even directly run it. So have fun with that! Also this code can fight censorship.

BWTC32Key encode/decode a file

stgiga (they/them)

polygender_verify

@mhoye When you are literally struggling to pay bills enough to be using a laundromat to wash your clothes, you are basically stuck with less-than-ideal device power and computing speeds, including bandwidth. You may even get a metered connection or heaven forbid a prepaid phone card internet, or you could be stuck with satellite internet in a remote and very cheap area of your state, or if it's wooded, stuck with non-fiber DSL, because satellite and HAM radio do not work for you, and cell coverage is spotty, and you aren't served by cable TV, and your landlines are too shitty for 56K. This shit happens in my area of California. Just a few hours away is Big Tech, but you go just a little outside that and it becomes a place where techbros would want to leave immediately. If you're in Silicon Valley, you're targeting the wrong area of the state. Never mind that red states tend to have MUCH shittier Internet than California as a whole due to deliberate technophobic underfunding and defunding. Don't host your shit in Southern states if you want it fast. They'll even try to censor your content when they aren't slowing it down. BellSouth ain't your friend, y'xll. The South is NOT the place for fast tech. Any job offer that requires me to move there will be sent trans furry art in response.

Of course, my main point is that not every user will be from a state or country that has fast Internet even if you're hosting shit in the hub of Big Tech itself. Even if your platform has relay servers IN the locations with shitty net speeds. Or abroad. Now, to be fair, I have broken this maxim on places of mine that look 1990s but under the hood do a fuckton of HTML5 shit. Even fucking 8-hexdigit RGBA. But then again I made a browser demo 3046 bytes in size, with 3045 possible. Then again BWTC32Key (http://b3k.me/b3k.htm for those without HTTPS and at https://b3k.sourceforge.io for those with it) could be minified a LOT from its 320032 byte size. That said it DOES fully follow PEP350 Codetags comments so... But at least ALL code is inside and it doesn't do any CSS funny business. The HTML5 just is what makes the File API (and Blob) work. Uint8arrays are involved, and I DID try to make the code not use the wack neo-HTML5 shit, like, it tries to avoid use of shit like let in JS. It runs in IE (well, enough to use as a password generator, and it needs decent IE). But it's not using shit like Web Workers and Promise. I bet even an ActionScript port could exist if you're into it. I've ran it fine on Opera Presto and fucking Pale Moon. I THINK Win2K K-Meleon and def KernelEx Firefox could run it.

BWTC32Key encode/decode a file

stgiga (they/them)

polygender_verify

@mhoye Some people really ARE stuck with their XP machines, or their PowerPC Macs from the local Goodwill. Or devices purchased at E-Waste places. Or electronics literally from the dump. Or that were in a dumpster. Like, seriously, people don't care if their tech is legacy when that is all they can own due to financial or geopolitical reasons. I can't STAND what Linux is doing in the kernel by listening to LLMs telling them to jettison a fuckton of drivers. Never mind that Gemini and Copilot get basic shit wrong, and ChatGPT does not understand that Magic 8-Balls are a completely mechanical contraption without any form of circuit inside them. AND YET, Linux says "let's see what AI tells us to drop for security next". It's fucking security theatre. The only things AI doesn't suck at in any way is upscaling. Minus DLSS5 of course. Also I may have gotten lucky. Oh and did I mention AI thinks anime art should be plasticky? At this point it feels like Linux is pulling a DOGE. Never mind that no, Linux didn't cure my acne. Linux dropping legacy shit for AI reasons is like cutting DEI programs to make the government more efficient. AND I'm an American, one who can't leave. A gay American at that. Did I mention that gay websites need to operate on the weaker devices, because a LOT of LGBTQ+ people due to systemic discrimination often can only afford shittier technology, and then of course you need to factor in secret phones that people use when in unsafe environments, and then you need to factor in that some gay people don't want to link accounts, among other factors. The thing is that if you axe legacy allowances for efficiency, you end up fucking over racial, ethnic, gender+sexuality, and other marginalized groups. Never mind that a LOT of assistive technology, physical and virtual, is not fast, nor is it new. People still may be using speech devices with fucking DECTalk voices on them, the American TDD system uses Baudot (though Punycode over it may be useful especially with UnifontEX) to this day while ASCII attempts have failed, bionic eyes go defunct due to company failure and yet replacements cost a bunch and may be hard to do too many times, some sites think ADA shit lets people gain unfair advantages, many screenreaders fumble on too-dynamic sites, JS overuse doesn't translate well to accessibility, and people on disability do not easily afford high-end technology or communication plans.

Like seriously, when it comes to deprecations, there are SO many DEI issues, it's not even funny. Even 2FA can be a problem for accessibility, and I have faced this firsthand at my university's disability testing center who was not granted a 2FA exemption.

@mhoye i love this.