Mastodawn

#NZPol
Take time to explain the basics.

Wealth/asset taxes are generally based on 'Net Worth'. If you don't know what this means you will likely think an asset tax will hit you harder than the reality.

Your Net Worth is your assets minus your liabilities
Eg you have a $3 million house, a $2 million mortgage and $100k of loans. Your net worth is $900k and that's what a wealth/asset tax would be based on.

I thought a co-worker was trolling me when he loudly proclaimed he wouldn't be able to afford the Green Party wealth tax so he'd never ever vote for them. After asking some questions I realized he genuinely did not understand 'net worth' and after explaining the above he said fairly quietly, 'I did not know that'.
#Accounting #Econ
#Democracy #TaxWealthNotWork

Francis Cook 6d ago

@Niall the downside is that if you have a 3million house (I assume this is based off market value) despite paying a lot less 15 years ago and paying off your mortgage you might not be able to afford your own house anymore. So hopefully you didn’t have a family or anything awkward like that.

@dianshuo read the other replies, its not so likely. If you're a couple you don't pay anything on net assets below $4million.

Francis Cook 6d ago

@Niall “it’s not so likely” ?

I don’t object to wealth taxes when they actually do what they say but most of these bright ideas actually end up squeezing the middle not the top. I can’t see how this is different.

@dianshuo that's good that you don't object to the principle. How would you structure one? Ideas are useful.

@Niall @dianshuo What successful international models are there?

@worik @dianshuo I'm not Google
Edit: sorry that was too blunt. Try here for a good discussion: Gary interviews Gabriel Zucman https://pca.st/episode/74fcf109-e47a-4069-92f2-2da641606793

The economist billionaires fear: this is how we get a wealth tax. Meeting Gabriel Zucman

Gabriel Zucman is the most important economist in the world today. And the one billionaires fear most. His wealth tax proposals have passed France's lower chamber of parliament – and will likely…

Pocket Casts

@Niall @dianshuo

I do not really have time to listen to another podcast!

Are there any examples of wealth taxes being applied in comparable economies to ours?

Francis Cook 5d ago

@worik @Niall I think the obvious answer is no. Everyone uses some form of progressive tax band. Norway is probably one of the more effective ones where it’s obvious what the state provides in return for “higher” tax. Having said all that - most of this comes down to what you are doing with the tax and no-one puts down a statement showing full income vs expenditure.

@worik @Niall @dianshuo in that podcast Zucman suggests setting up the tax thresholds so that the richest 100 people in the country pay around 2% of their wealth every year. He also suggests setting up tax in general such that if you are a citizen, you still have to pay taxes to the country for a few years after you leave. He's not suggesting anything as draconian as the USA tax policy of "you pay taxes to the country for your whole life" but thinks a few years would be a good idea.

@mu @Niall @dianshuo

> in that podcast Zucman suggests setting up the tax thresholds so that the richest 100 people in the country pay around 2% of their wealth every year.

Ok. I am not arguing that that seems sensible on the face of it

But what I would like to know is what has been tried, how has it worked, what went wrong, what can be done better.

Activist economists (me too) can say anything they please. Data from policies applied is gold.

Look at the experience with rent control...

@worik
If we can only try things that have already been done, are we stuck forever with a system we know does not work?
@mu @Niall @dianshuo

@RedRobyn @mu @Niall @dianshuo

If we do not pay attention to what has gone before...

...we are fucked

@worik @Niall @dianshuo I think all economists are activists.

Where has it been tried before? None of the concepts are new, we have had wealth taxes in the past, we have had thresholds in the past. Most countries tax assets in various ways

I feel you're looking for more detail here than I'm able to give. It would probably be faster and more accurate to listen to the podcast. You may also be able to find a transcript somewhere?

I don't claim to be an expert in this area, that's why I'm listening to the experts.

Francis Cook 5d ago

@mu @worik @Niall opposed to the tax after leaving. That is essentially a migration/free movement control.

2% on assets seems like a bodge that doesn’t address disguised earnings/tax avoidance directly. Again squeezing the middle unless the “100 richest” is dynamically determined.

@worik you seem to want others to do the hard work of searching and you only offer negative feedback. Either deliberately or accidentally you are sealioning.
@dianshuo I feel you are nearly as bad. I have already asked you for your ideas once but all you do is provide reasons why other's ideas are bad. This is not helpful or useful.
@mu

@Niall @mu @dianshuo

What?

Do I have to watch a podcast to get asimple answer to a simple question?

What do you expect of me. You do not know me or what I've done.

I am asking people with opinions about their opinions

I offer more than negative feedback, that is all you heard. Look again.

You are gaslighting me.

Get beyond the slogans (tax the rich - fine slogan good concept) to the policy nitty gritty

Where have wealth taxes been tried? What did and did not work.

@worik @Niall @dianshuo wealth taxes have been tried in the past. Some of them haven't worked, in particular France exempted billionaires and it collapsed the whole thing.

What do you think wouldn't work? If I can get a feel for your concerns, maybe I can suggest something that might ally them?

@mu @Niall @dianshuo France's is one of the few I've heard of.

IIn my mind I compare it to rent control, about which I know more.

Famous for rorts and distortions in New York yet with more careful policy i know European cities have had success

I'm interested in stories.

France is one.

The other day I heard a liberal tory dismiss the idea "50 attempts at a wealth tax, only 5 still around". It surprised me as I'd only heard of France

Hence I keep asking, despite the flaming I'm getting

@worik @Niall @dianshuo

I can't give you one summary, but Wikipedia has a pretty good overview of wealth taxes, their criticisms and benefits

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax

It's in a bit of depth.

One thing to note about this proposed wealth tax is that it's much simpler than any of these historic taxes, which all seem to have been captured by the ultra-rich over time

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

@worik @mu @dianshuo I'm sorry, you're right, I only heard your constant nagging to provide information about an idea you don't like so that you can pick holes in it. I didn't engage with your ridiculous 50% GST suggestion other than to nudge it towards an idea supported by the majority of economists-a carbon tax.
You harry me for data about an idea that is perfectly researchable by yourself. It is not my idea, not my job to do this for you. The starting point I offer for you to begin your research, you reject.
Meanwhile the ideas you put forward have no popular or academic support AFAIK and you have provided nothing of the data you are demanding from me to support them.
I stand by my summary of your behaviour. Do better or get blocked.

@dianshuo @worik @Niall the 2% is worked through in Zucmans work. The rest seems to be fairly straightforward?

@dianshuo @mu @Niall

> opposed to the tax after leaving.

What does that mean? Is some text missing?

The 2% wealth tax is a kite being flown, not a concrete policy. Concrete wealth tax policy will be ,such harder than that if it is to work.

Have to start somewhere

@worik @dianshuo @Niall Zucman had a book that outlines the policy, that would probably be a good option to get the detail that you're after.