I do not like the new surreal fascism. It's not cute. It's not ironic. I thought part of the whole appeal of authoritarianism was the consistency, the lack of complexity, the comfort of a world brutally sorted into little metal boxes.
But, you're not going to get any of that with these guys.
I guess the fear is still there. "The Pope is Weak on Crime" no one knows what this means, but also everyone gets it.
I mean. On the whole, Jesus was "weak on crime".
If you think about it. 🤔
He was not very into the whole punitive model of justice.
Hmm. Did he though..?
@TerryHancock @futurebird Pretty much. He talks a lot about hell as a place of punishment, which (as I understand it) was not really a feature of the Jewish afterlife.
And the notion of eternal conscious torment is really fucked up.
@michaelgemar
True. There are even those who have made the case that Jesus was entirely fictitious. There are no real contemporaneous references to him, outside of Christian sources, so it's possible.
Of course, the ancient world was not so documented as today. There are many people and events with limited references. I am personally of the opinion that he existed, but that the gospel exaggerated his impact. Which seems consistent with religious leaders and followers, generally.
But it clearly is the case that the Gospels are essentially propaganda documents created many years after, with agendas set by their authors.
So analysis of what Jesus said, is best understood as literary criticism of a character, as represented, rather than analysis of any real person the character may be based on. It's mythology or mytho-history at best.
I am most struck, though, by the many times that Jesus tempered punitive behavior, forgave sins, encouraged rehabilitation, understanding, acceptance, etc. This seems contrary to the punitive mindset of conservatives to me.
@TerryHancock @michaelgemar @InkySchwartz @futurebird
Jesus is whatever you want Jesus to be.
As far as we can trace peeps have been arguing about the nature of the annointed one and if was flesh or not, or suffered or not. Where it came from, where it went and what it all means.
The modern fashion of mundane flesh Jesus Christology assembled by removing stuff from the Gospel of Mark seems more post protestant Christology for the masses that stopped going to masses but want novel Jesuses.
@TerryHancock @michaelgemar @InkySchwartz @futurebird
The "mythical Jesus" theory got a lot of play in the 70s and 80s among scholars but while there's no real settling the question for certain, the evidence is pretty strong for an actual human figure who lived around that time. (Bart Ehrman's book is the go-to on this.)
The four "canonical" gospels, which were far from the only ones written, each have their own case and tell a slightly different story. Notably, those aren't the earliest attestations to the events of Jesus' life. The oldest surviving documents we have are Paul's epistles (particularly the ones he actually wrote), which go back to within 10 years after Jesus' death.
Whether Jesus was God become human or the messiah or whatever other point of argument one carries, surviving documentation is consistent with a person who was at least known for his healing and teaching and who was killed by the Roman state.
@Jestbill It's possible, but unlikely given the historical texts.
One of the clearest ways to spot a story invented by a conspiracy is that all the accounts line up perfectly. Real people recall real events differently, at least in slight ways.
The other thing I always note is that in the 30-40 years immediately after the date of the crucifixion, arguments break out almost immediately, between disciples arguing what it means, Romans making fun of Christians for worshiping a "god" they murdered for fun, Hebrew authorities accusing them of blasphemy, and so on. And yet no one in all of this ever seems to say, "y'all just made that guy up, stop lying!"
@TerryHancock @InkySchwartz @futurebird Personally I don’t think temporal mercy makes up for eternal torture in the afterlife.
(Just to be transparent, I’m a kinda grumpy atheist, so my views are coloured by that.)
@TerryHancock @michaelgemar @futurebird As an Athiest I have pondered the mythic Jesus idea and found some actual evidence for him. The Roman Tacticus: https://historyforatheists.com/2017/09/jesus-mythicism-1-the-tacitus-reference-to-jesus/
And a Jew Yosef ben Matityahu https://historyforatheists.com/2020/10/josephus-jesus-and-the-testimonium-flavianum/
Neither source is perfect but they exist.
Publius Cornelius Tacitus was one of the most reliable of all Roman historians and many first century figures are known to us solely through his mention of them. This means his passing reference to Jesus in Annals XV.44 remains an fly in the ointment of the Jesus Myth hypothesis. Despite Tacitus’ reliability and the scholarly agreement that the reference is genuine, Mythicist ideologues have several ways by which they try to dismiss this reference; all of them characteristically weak. The... Read More Read More
@TerryHancock @michaelgemar @InkySchwartz @futurebird Jesus seems pretty clear on the fact that whatever [conservative] are refusing to do for the poorer will earn them hell ↴
"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me. ...whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."
— Matthew 25:41–43 (NIV)
myrmepropagandist
Space Catitude 🚀
Michael Gemar
Inky says "What the hell?!"
don
jamo
Michael Bacon
Mans R
Jestbill
nojhan, Cassandre de l’analyse systémique