myrmepropagandist2d ago

RE: https://mastodon.social/@arstechnica/116397070356098122

In an ideal world courses would have pass/fail grades if they have grades at all. Grades get in the way of learning. (Students turn to LLMs to save their grades.)

So, I think part of this tension goes back to what we grade and why.

I'm lucky that in math I only ever assign grades for in-class tests.

In my CS classes I lean a lot on sharing student work. Fortunately my students like to show off for each other. They are excited to see what I and their peers think of their projects.

Show threadmyrmepropagandist2d ago

Teacher feedback is precious. It takes time to read and write comments and provide guidance. Doing that kind of work on LLM slop is depressing. The teacher could have been writing feedback for a student who did the work and might learn from it.

How can the way we present this feedback emphisize its value?

What about "you may submit 3 essays per term for feedback" the feedback isn't a grade, it's just comments to help you when you write the final essay in class without an LLM?

Show threadmyrmepropagandist
When I was in school I always wished my teachers would write more comments on my essays. I just wanted someone to read them and be impressed. I don't think that's changed.
Apr 13 at 11:41amWeb
Show threadmyrmepropagandist2d ago

Feedback is also a limited resource and students don't understand this since they think teachers have infinite time.

Maybe the way that it's presented needs to make it more clear that this is something of value, not a punishment... which is how younger kids can see it.

eg. "Decide what you want me to read, I only have time to do this two times."

I think fewer students would give LLM content in that context.

It is, frankly, rude to give someone a bunch of LLM text to read.

Show threadmyrmepropagandist2d ago

I had a 6th grade student who I asked to design a pattern to print on the laser cutter. She was excited to get feedback and use the laser cutter.

Her pattern was rushed and ... just not very good. So, I asked her to re-draft it with more care. This was a big ask. In 6th grade that's a new skill.

"Why didn't you write more feedback?"

"I'm not spending more time on feedback than you did drafting. Slow down."

She got it eventually, but there is more work to be done there.

Show threadMoon joy2d ago

@futurebird I can totally see the 6th-grader's perspective - I too was always impatient to learn how to do everything perfectly! (I'm so glad there weren't LLM chatbots when I was a kid, I'd have been susceptible to their siren song for this very reason!)

But of course now I see yours so much more clearly - learning to be careful is so much more useful than whatever the outcome of that particular laser-cut could be!

Show threadJencel Panic2d ago
@futurebird true, unfortunately our whole society works with grades and punishments. Even at work we are asked to grade our colleagues
Show threadPatrick Lam 2d ago
@abuseofnotation @futurebird pass/fail as mentioned elsewhere in this thread is something that I believe in as well. Unfortunately I have to give more detailed grades than that.
Show threadmyrmepropagandist2d ago

@va2lam @abuseofnotation

I'm. in the same boat. Either the kid learned algebra and will be fine next year learning more math... or not. And the later is rare.

It feels kind of unfair to send them all along with different grades that end up being used for all kinds of things that have nothing to do with what courses they need to take.

Show threadDon Ray2d ago

@futurebird

The Robert Frost quip (from his professor days) comes to mind:

“I am no perfunctory reader of perfunctory papers.”

Show threadcpkimber2d ago
@futurebird I only have about 20 or 30 students per semester, but I have all the time in the world for the ones that give me their time and truly try to understand what I am teaching.
Show threadAsakiyume2d ago

@futurebird

--to the "something of value, not a punishment" part,

I was like you in liking feedback, but I think it's because I received mainly positive or encouraging comments, which I think means I had teachers who valued that. I think that some kids have the experience of teachers who just write. "No" and "Explain" and "Word choice??" which can be deflating and discouraging and can lead them to not want feedback.

(And/But it's also true that they think teachers have unlimited time!)

Show threadLizzie2d ago
@asakiyume @futurebird

Slightly tangential but I fairly recently learned that people with ADHD tend to be oversensitive to negatives due to difficulty regulating emotions, and even the most well meaning feedback or critique can feel about the same as being completely torn down. So unfortunately for some people even constructive and encouraging feedback can ring out negatively.

Hell, I've seen it with myself lots, and only now know why.
Show threadAsakiyume2d ago

@AngelicAura @futurebird

Yeah, that's another thing a teacher can learn--the sensitivities of individual students. But it's hard, given how overburdened they are.

Show threadLizzie2d ago
@asakiyume @futurebird
That is true, I would never expect a teacher to go to so much additional effort. Well, at least not with how education is set up in much of the world nowadays.

Just wanted to offer another perspective!
Show threadAsakiyume2d ago
@AngelicAura @futurebird Very glad to have it! There are so many sides and aspects to any idea, discussion--anything really.
Show threadsecretsloth2d ago
@futurebird it really sounds like using an LLM would be the fastest way to suck joy out of pretty much anything. I'm glad I'm not in school now, since I'm autistic and apparently our written work tends to get flagged as LLM written pretty often, at least I don't have to deal with having to fight that accusation. I wonder though whether folks who initially cheat using LLMs, eventually stop? Probably not all, but I'd bet some do. 🤔 I wonder how common it is.
Show threadIris Young (he/they/she) (PhD)2d ago
@futurebird this would have helped me a lot (and also frustrated me to no end, honestly). I did not have that level of empathy developed yet, to my perpetual shame.
Show threadAna Bollocks / Kristin C.2d ago

@iris @futurebird I didn't either. Maybe it's a development age thing, at least to an extent?

Thinking out loud... maybe spelling out the purpose of the feedback would help, especially if the essays are voluntary. And that it takes time for you to give might also help. I know it seems obvious but... kids (and adults!) are where they are. The comment about not spending more time on feedback than was spent on the task is perfect, but maybe more kids need to hear it.

Show threadAna Bollocks / Kristin C.2d ago
@iris @futurebird Also, granted I was a kid who didn't worry about grades in the first place but - I'm not totally convinced kids use LLMs only to save grades. They want to spend time on other things too. I *liked* learning and even homework. But that homework was perpetually done during the class before it was due, bc I had other things I wanted to do after school. Or I just forgot about it until it was the next day already.
Show threadBruce Simpson, Ph.D.1d ago
@futurebird Such strange concepts from a GPT. Honesty, understanding. These concepts do not exist in the world of the LLM except in terms of model weights, and I would rather we had a less contrived human-computer interface here, where we meet in the middle, rather than pretending it is something that it is not.
Show threadTael 🔜 AC261d ago

@futurebird "It is, frankly, rude to give someone a bunch of LLM text to read."

100%! Extremely disrespectful to give advice on something and they respond with the ChatGPT output for their question.

Show threadPaul Chernoff2d ago

@futurebird Flashbacks to a college course. Supposedly we were supposed to be learning critical thinking but the goal was to have students adopt political opinions.

If was a film course and we were to write in a journal after seeing each movie. We would see only comments from the graders (grad students). We were graded but didn't get to see the grades, only comments.

When we finally saw the grades they were much lower than most people expected. So the quality of comments weren't that good.