Mastodawn

When people talk about "digital sovereignty" and "european alternatives" I really just wonder what the hell they are talking about. Just look at Schwarz Digits, controlled by LIDL-boss Dieter Schwarz. That's not an alternative. That's a menace.

Posted while listening to the great talk by Anna Kraher at #cablesofresistance in Berlin.

https://programm.infraunited.org/cableresist26/talk/VJYLJW/

Big Tech made in Germany? Lidl und das Verprechen digitaler Souveränität Cables of Resistance - movement conference against Big Tech

Unter dem Label digitale Souveränität wird momentan massiv in digitale Infrastrukturprojekte „made in Germany“ investiert. Unternehmen greifen darunter direkt in KI-Entwicklung, Wissenschaft und Bildung ein und rufen dabei eine nationale (digitale) Identität an. Soziale Bewegungen stehen vor der Aufgabe, lokale politische Praxis zu entwickeln, die den transnationalen Zusammenhang im Blick behält.

@malteengeler
Ich frage mich ob es eine Strategie sein kann die Schwarz-Gruppe als "Lebensmittel-Diskaunter" öffentlich lächerlich zu machen.

Das die LidlGruppe maximal unsympathisch ist, ist so denke ich in "unseren" Kreisen, klar.

Niels Abildgaard 2d ago

@malteengeler Yeah, a lot of people are looking at the EUs moves towards digital soverignty as a solution to all our big tech woes, but it's like that cartoon about "more female dictators": changing the ownership of a rotten structure does not undo the structure.

That said, a movement towards better structures can certainly take advantage of the mood du jour in the EU.

jesterchen42 2d ago

@malteengeler Falls der Talk zu diesem Toot inspiriert hat: gibt es den zufällig irgendwo online?

Update: https://programm.infraunited.org/cableresist26/talk/VJYLJW/

War wohl bis gerade noch live, ich warte also einfach und schaue selbst.

Big Tech made in Germany? Lidl und das Verprechen digitaler Souveränität Cables of Resistance - movement conference against Big Tech

Unter dem Label digitale Souveränität wird momentan massiv in digitale Infrastrukturprojekte „made in Germany“ investiert. Unternehmen greifen darunter direkt in KI-Entwicklung, Wissenschaft und Bildung ein und rufen dabei eine nationale (digitale) Identität an. Soziale Bewegungen stehen vor der Aufgabe, lokale politische Praxis zu entwickeln, die den transnationalen Zusammenhang im Blick behält.

Fnordinger 2d ago

@malteengeler can’t wait to free myself from bad big tech, so I can get oppressed by good big tech.

Ist halt das Problem, wenn stumpfer und unreflektierter Antiamerikanismus (nicht, dass die USA gerade in irgendeiner Weise gut regiert werden) dazu führen, dass die eigentliche Message überhaupt nicht ankommt (oder gar nicht erst da war(?))

Niko Trimmel 2d ago

@Fnordinger it is the peoples' choice. Die einen werden eine europäische Plattform eines Großkonzerns bevorzugen. Die anderen eine open source Plattform eines amerikanischen alternativen Kollektivs. Und die dritten wollen beides: europäisch und open source, aber nicht vom Großkonzern.

Leute wollen unterschiedliche Singe. Und so, wie wir bei digitaler Privacy von verschiedenen Threat Models sprechen, die unterschiedliche Schlüsse nach sich ziehen, ist es auch hier mMn.

Fnordinger 2d ago

@nitrml 💯, aber digital sovereignty bedeutet eben nicht, sich von großen Unternehmen abhängig zu machen.
Deshalb ist es auch gerade nicht wirklich umsetzbar, spätestens beim Hosting von Onlinediensten wird irgendwo ein großes Unternehmen auftauchen. @malteengeler

Klarname 🌈2d ago

@malteengeler when you want to go full enterprise scale with many cloud Services interweaved, there are not many european alternatives with fully integral ceo's

Dr. Daniel Dizdarevic 1d ago

@strigga_ @malteengeler That's exactly why IT departments with a sense of responsibility should host this on their own infrastructure. Open-source software such as OpenStack (on which the Schwartz group's entire cloud infrastructure runs btw) makes this possible and straightforward.

Klarname 🌈1d ago

@daniel @malteengeler yes you are right. Most enterprises Focus on their core Business as running IT infra on that scale is very very expensive. The CIOs and CTOs I Know struggle to find a good Balance.

Dr. Daniel Dizdarevic 1d ago

@strigga_ @malteengeler In fact, running your own infrastructure stack is cheaper in the long run. However, the immediate costs and limits of short-term scalability often drive people towards public clouds. While these are valid concerns, I often hear people (at least in Germany) saying things like "if it's free, it cannot be good" or "we must pay for a better or more reliable solution". In a capitalist world, this way of thinking is to be expected, and it's one of the biggest obstacles to digital sovereignty IMO 😬

Klarname 🌈1d ago

@daniel @malteengeler yeah. Problem is: that local infra does not scale well

Dr. Daniel Dizdarevic 1d ago

@strigga_ @malteengeler It does, it just requires more planning and preparation.

Klarname 🌈17h ago

@daniel @malteengeler

Not ad-hoc. Need 50 extra loadbalanced Servers?

Not argueing against you, just saying that there are good arguments for both sides.

@malteengeler Not sure what your point is. Stick with the US tech bros because EU is just as bad so who cares? Stop using technology all together?
I mean, no one ever claimed that all and every EU based alternative to all and any US based service is great and perfect, did they?

Malte Engeler 2d ago

@Dan my point:

https://programm.infraunited.org/cableresist26/talk/37MJS8/

Cables Of Hope - socialising digital platforms instead of reforming the status quo Cables of Resistance - movement conference against Big Tech

Digital platforms are the powerful manifestation of capitalist digitisation. They manage and commercialise every aspect of our lives, whilst evading democratic control. This talk aims to make the socialisation of these platforms a central component of a transformative movement connecting people's needs and digital tools.

@malteengeler I would agree on those suggestions but can't see how that contradicts the move towards EU based alternatives for various other services. Example: I work at a Norwegian university. We are forced to use MS cloud services for everything we do. I'd much rather have an EU based and owned cloud service. Wouldn't you agree?

Malte Engeler 2d ago

@Dan Yes and no.

https://www.structural-integrity.eu/a-larger-cage-about-the-ongoing-calls-for-digital-sovereignty/

A larger cage: about the ongoing calls for "digital sovereignty"

Calls for "digital sovereignty" are still everywhere. They are a central narrative of contemporary European economic policies, they serve as powerful justifications for corporations to call for subsidies and they are also omnipresent among progressive digital policy NGOs and activists. Aline has alr

Structural Integrity

@malteengeler Hmm. I am certainly in the group which advocates for moving away from big US corp. is good.
What I don't get in the essay: It repeats about a dozen times that moving to EU based services doesn't make things better.
But it does not seem to give any suggestion on what the alternative would be. Or that suggestion slipped my attention. How do you "democratise" a cloud service? Have the infrastructure operated by the government?

@malteengeler
Oh no! The Torment Nexus! Quick, we must create EuroTorment!

@ozzelot @malteengeler I'm running OpenTorment, I don't know why anyone would trust tech corporations, but I'm not going to be left behind by Torment either.

@davey_cakes @malteengeler Your OpenTorment was still created by observing millions of unconsenting tormentees! Just because you can choose how fast the sawblades spin doesn't mean your Torment is any better!

@ozzelot @malteengeler the sawblades are spinning in accordance with GPL, that makes it ethical

hannes99 2d ago

@malteengeler same goes for WSocial, Wedium, Eurosky and Monnett.

Wren Reilly 2d ago

German IT has dismal gender diversity numbers compared to the rest of Europe, and many people who oppose Silicon Valley are fine with tech bros recreating US tech mistakes as long as they are made in Berlin.

Krista, Darth Møøse Shark 1d ago

@akareilly @malteengeler God, the things some men SAID to me when I worked in IT there...

Frutiger 2d ago

@malteengeler maybe under capitalism its difficult to make a "free tech company" decision. Its kind of better because eu companies are atached to eu laws, which are better than usa laws.
But because we think as consumers, the solutions we see are "buy from another" and not a real tech revolution, unless there are clear instructions somewhere that doesnt involve "giving money to another big tech".right now i can only think of the lesser evil. Unless someone points out a better solution.

Stephan Dörner 2d ago

@malteengeler As many things nowadays it‘s meant first and foremost in a pure realpolitik military sense. Lidl servers are located in an area military controlled by Germany.

Open Risk 1d ago

@malteengeler European countries emulating dystopic US tech, the way e.g., China has done, is obviously not the digital society we want, and vigilance is required, but the risk it will happen is less.

Such models cannot scale across Europe as new local digital overlords to replace the old remote ones. The challenge (and opportunity) for Europe is precisely its diversity of interests.

In the short term the bigger risk imho is doing nothing, rather than doing something wrong and irreversible.