Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022
Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron This is a very rich ethics question hidden in a specific example.
Would you permit or allow any community with which you disagree to participate on a platform, even if you’re not forced to participate?
A shortlist of thought experiments, to broaden the perspective, some of which are already here, some not…
- The oil & gas community
- Forestry workers (logging)
- The cryptocurrency community
- Workers at a chick rendering plant
- The finance industry
- Adult content creators
- Religious communities
Is there a litmus test for topics that you can or can’t discuss on the fediverse? Specific servers sure, but the whole fediverse?
Does that align with the values put forth by mastodon or the fediverse in general?
I don’t have the answers.
@trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron by definition, no. Literally anyone can spin up a server and talk about anything/try to get more folk to listen…
But other folk have to want to listen to whatever they are saying. Servers and individuals can just decide not to. No one is guaranteed an audience, just the ability to speak.
@pmdj @octothorpe @trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron Well fedi doesn't make you hear the bad opinions of people you chose not to follow by algorithmically putting them in your feed to make you mad and drive up engagement.
So that means you don't see the AI propagandists on here except when someone you follow is debunking them.
That is the exact opposite of what I said. I'm saying the fediverse gives you the tools to follow/block/filter/ to your hearts content to create the space you want.
What is corrosive is people ACTIVELY going after people they don't agree with. Just look at the replies to my post to get small sample.
My point was, I thought, very simple, and very reasonable: we should be more welcoming of more opinions. If you don't like them, then don't follow them. That should be the fedi-way. To be clear, I'm NOT endorsing AI, it just used it as an example.
Instead I'm living the very point I was trying to make. I've been told to leave, called a racist, and had ad hominem attacks leveled at me.
Now to be fair, my original post was poorly worded. I've owned that
https://social.coop/@scottjenson/116358195717244835
@scottjenson @pmdj No, we absolutely should NOT be "welcoming more opinions". "Diversity of thought" is NOT a value. Some opinions are wrong. They may have a right to exist, as long as they're not nazi opinions (those have no right to even exist), but that doesn't mean we have to welcome them. It's perfectly fine to tell people off for having bad opinions, to shun them, to let them share those bad opinions only with whoever is willing to listen to them and not in our circles.
If that causes them to leave fedi, that's not a bad thing.
I'm making a post on my timeline that you can ignore. There is a BIG difference to getting in someone's mentions and correcting them.
This is my whole point. We are each on the fediverse and we say what we want. You can like, ignore, whatever.
I'm NOT getting in anyone's mentions, I'm not scolding, I'm ASKING that we are more inclusive because it's the more humane and helpful thing to do, but hey, you can disagree, that's cool.
Okay maybe you need to be clearer on what you mean by "more welcoming"?
As was pointed out already, there is nothing stopping anyone from starting, say, a Mastodon Nazi Bar. It can exist, it can be publicly accessible, it can be open for anyone to join.
How could Mastodon possibly be made "more welcoming" than that?
After "the right to exist" for such people, though, there is no "obligation to be subjected to them" for anyone. Thank *bleep* for THAT.
@scottjenson @dalias @pmdj Also, every Mastodon admin has the ability to allow or block users and entire other servers.
Some servers are "safe places" for people that are heavily moderated so that their users aren't subjected to upsetting, triggering or hurtful content. Other servers are operated like a free for all where "anything goes" and anything is allowed through.
That gives end users the control they need to join the instance that best matches their own interests and sensitivities.
@scottjenson @dalias @pmdj So I think it's fair to, when you're suggesting that we should be "more inclusive", ask "how"?
Your OP hints at the notion that your perception of a lack of "inclusivity" is due to a systemic problem with how Mastodon works. So we ask "how do you suggest it be improved"?
People's choices are not a "platform issue". So what, in your opinion, is?
@scottjenson @dalias @pmdj hard to ignore the guy who works for mastodon (?) that says that not giving equal time to folks killing puppies is a "personal choice"…
are you sure you work in PR?
@fishidwardrobe @scottjenson @dalias @pmdj this analogy comparing AI people to ‘people killing puppies’ is … interesting.
One I would argue is completely uncalled for.
@scottjenson @pmdj It's not an "evil plot" it's just irresponsible growth hacking that capitalist social media platforms are infamous for. People with shitty opinions drive rage engagement, so encourage them to come! 🤮
As I said when I first engaged with this thead, yes "more open to new ideas" and "more tolerant" are BAD THINGS without further qualification. "Diversity of opinion" is NOT a value. It's freeze-peach bro shit.
Yes we should strive to be as inclusive as possible towards people born different from us who have not had the same experiences, privilegs, etc. as us and whose needs, concerns, ways of communicating, etc. might be very different from our own.
This does not imply we should also be inclusive towards people who want to kiss tech industy ass.
@scottjenson @dalias @pmdj You might need to go refresh your memory on the paradox of tolerance?
AI, for example, is currently wrecking the economy, along with pretty much everybody's livelihoods, is undoing a bunch of work on climate change as companies reopen gas plants, poisoning whole communities, consolidates power into the hands of some of the worst people in the world, has driven the price of RAM and GPUs through the roof, encouraged widespread theft, massively reduced the quality of things to the point of being dangerous (AI mushroom foraging books!), is driving people into psychosis and causing cognitive decline.
Why should we tolerate that?
In my experience people on Mastodon think a lot more clearly about these kinds of issues than most, and will challenge people thoughtlessly dragging in mainstream assumptions. That can be confronting, but it's not intolerant.
And there's a certain irony in claiming that we're intolerant towards minorities, but the examples of intolerance are all things like being asked to include a content warning for people with trauma, or alt text images for people who are blind, or think for two seconds before huffing AI in public. Everyone wants their problems fixed first, I guess...
@scottjenson after sleeping on it, I am choosing to respond because I cannot let your narrative go unchallenged, since you speak as a "Product Strategy Advisor to Mastodon Core team". Your intentions are probably good, but the words you chose to publish read a lot like unexamined privilege and a deep misunderstanding of lived reality of many people in this federation:
equating the experience of mass harassment on minorities to "journalists not getting engagement" is a slap in the face to both the victims of harassment and the volunteers (operators, moderators and developers) who keep this federation running. This reads extremely tone deaf and patronizing, and you antagonized a lot of people with that comparison
engagement dynamics being different than on mainstream parasocial platforms is not a bug, it is the main feature! Many (most?) people are here seeking a refuge from the exploitative attention economy and prioritize mutual connections above the parasocial one-way audience management that most journalists have been trained to seek out. I would not say that journalists are not welcome per se, but their usual methods definitely are
your example of "AI journalism" was very poorly chosen and contributed to the polarization. GenAI is NOT a neutral technology: it is the technological arm of an anti-social, parasitic and regressive societal project. This societal project is built on "values" that are the polar opposite of those that most instances in this federation uphold and is destroying countless lives, including those of people who are the rockbed of the Fediverse. Your replies minimizing this harm "because they're not nazis" read at lot like unexamined privilege
"big tent" attitudes are a red flag to many of us, because they usually end with marginalized people being pushed away while "the good gents" look away from the violence. Tolerance is a social contract, and people who promote anti-social views don't benefit from that social contract
The Fediverse is the opposite of an echo chamber! I picked up sewing and tried crochet, learned about insects and wild birds. I learned about the lives of people with chronic pain, several forms of neurodivergence and am following several blind authors. I read 10 thousands pages last year thanks to many book recommendations. It is one of the very few places that still feels human, and you are rubbing against people who fight to defend that.
I recommend you seek out feedback about this thread from several women and think about how you can come back to the conversation with a less antagonistic and tone-deaf attitude. We need people like you, but we don't need the "big tent" attitude you exhibited on this thread.
Amid all the baseline "hell no" responses, you have provided an empathetic and detailed critique, along with specific actions for how the OP can learn and improve.
I'm kind of in awe. Well done. 🤩
@scottjenson and to preempt accusations of piling-on, I am replying to a post that is on my home timeline, because I used to follow you.
I unfollowed you, went out to literally touch grass and moved on, but seeing you double-down in this thread prompted me to reply.
Maybe we'll cross timelines again in the future and I'll follow you again.
@scottjenson @dalias @pmdj I think what you’re talking about is called “talking to each other about our problems and working it out”, which is the only option left to us when we have no technical means of preventing different types of people from joining in on a community.
Unfortunately, some people are not going to agree with you. Nor are they required to. You can’t control them or ask them to behave differently, quite frankly. You can only control yourself and how you deal with it.
@trisweb @scottjenson @dalias @pmdj every server admin can put up server rules to encourage the community to treat each other in certain ways. They can enforce such rules.
Many countries have rules limiting free speech when individual freedoms of others are at stake. The cyberspace is subject to such rules.
@scottjenson
You’re the white guy. The white guy who doesn’t know what it’s like not to be a white guy.
@scottjenson @pmdj @dalias I'm with ya bro. Don't hear anyone complaining about ai application in the science fields. People are just focused on the slop side of things, not the tangible.
[edit]
Came back to posit a real world example.
Simulating ALL 100 billion stars in the Milky Way for the first time (with the help of AI?!
- Dr Becky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFpW5W06kV4
"If you don't like them, then don't follow them. That should be the fedi-way"
I want people to build communities here. What you are proposing is what I've started calling "toxic individualism" - most Americans are taught this, and it's so pervasive that many of us don't even realize we are swimming in it.
But it prevents the many weak from coming together to protect themselves from the few powerful. I'm tired of being blandly atomized.
@dianshuo @scottjenson @pmdj @dalias
Sorry, but I'm kinda confused. If you meant to reply to me (which you did, but I'm very unsure of why???) then you must have misunderstood me. I do not want to build influence, and am baseline rather suspicious of anyone who does follow me 😄.
My idea of community is people who I share interests with, who I interact with, and who I can build trust with. Mastodon has been working for me to do so fairly well so far.
@pmdj @scottjenson Those problems would be largely fixed by reply controls and a working* block function, but for some reason Mastodon team can't give us those.
(*) By "working", I mean a block function that detaches all past replies by the account you're blocking from your posts, so that you're not serving as a billboard for their opinions every time someone expands your toot.
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