So apparently today the thing that has me screaming is living in a society built on hurting kids.

Not just child sexual abuse.

Every kind of harm & exploitation.

Why am I not having kids? Well, one reason is that I feel like there are plenty of kids in the world *already* for me to worry about, & there will always be more.

Maybe this is part of what upsets the right wing folks when childless people are concerned about the welfare of kids.

You're not supposed to worry about "other people's kids" (otherwise known as human beings with their own rights).

At BEST you're only supposed to worry about your kids, but even then, you're supposed to worry about competing for things, not their fucking well-being as individuals.

You're not supposed to look at a child & see a person. You're supposed to see *property*.

A childless adult concerned about the rights & needs of children has no "skin in the game" in their minds. If you *aren't* a child, & you don't have children of your own, then how does it affect you if children are suffering?

It does actually affect me in a number of ways, but even if it didn't, what the fuck? Is the question they are asking "why do you care about human beings?" or is it "why do you think children are human beings?"

Trick question! It's both.

But goddamn. Hurting kids is just so fucking NORMAL in our world, & it has to stop.

We don't need age verification online (a surveillance ploy). We need to stop normalizing the abuse & exploitation of children in every area of life & culture.

Keeping a kid off the Internet doesn't fucking protect them from the predatory adults around them. In fact, it may make them more vulnerable than ever.

I mean, I love my parents & I know they have always loved me, so how tf were they so convinced that they needed to *"break my will"* as a child?

Because breaking a child's will is just what you do, that's why! You break them down. You teach them their "no" means nothing. You teach them they aren't even allowed to say "no". You punish every act of independence & forbid their anger. You demand that they always obey & "respect" adults without question.

You know, normal, healthy shit.

@artemis

oozing with sarcasm I hope lol.

I despise parental abuse & coercive power imbalances just "cuz".

And don't have a relationship with my parents for solid reasons related to this.

@artemis Yeah... Also known as brainwashing. Seriously. That shit comes straight out of Soviet spy manuals.

@artemis

I'm sorry that this happened to you. or to any kid. It wasn't my experience. And I made sure it wasn't my kids experience. I consciously constantly give my kids the agency that was appropriate to their developmental level. Interestingly I also got heavily into dog "training" methods that also are all about the dog's agency. You can kind of look at the two main dog "training" methods and see that raising kids mirrors those two ideas. I do scare quotes around "training"

@artemis

Because the view of those in the positive reinforcement + agency side is really that it's more like dog relationship building. Yes there's learning going on, but it's really important that the dog *trusts* you and wants to be with you.

Same for kids really. And broken in the same ways for dogs and kids. The whole "breaking down" and brainwashing and creating learned helplessness thing is right there in the dog training manuals for the other side.

@artemis

In fact, it'd be a great thing to write an explicitly Anarchist dog training manual, and teach people about human Anarchy ideas through dog training.

@dlakelan
Ok, yes, I'm into this.
@artemis
Wouldn't that be a great book? Such a good way to bring those ideas to people. And there are plenty of people who feel more authentic and loving towards their dogs compared to their broken relationships with humanity. Empathy for dogs is way easier for people, because it is "safer"
@artemis
And once you learn to interact with dogs while accepting their agency and authentically caring for them, its so much easier to imagine how that would work for a partner or a child or your friends or coworkers etc.
@dlakelan @artemis I'd take recommendations on explicitly anarchist parenting strategies, too.

@lizzard @dlakelan @artemis

Disclaimer: I am a former child but have none of my own.

If you can't explain a rule, the rule doesn't need to exist.

My mom explained rules to me as choices with consequences.

Staying up late means more stress tomorrow

@CorvidCrone @dlakelan @artemis check: doing that already, feels natural. How else?!
@lizzard
i dont have any book recommendations or anything, but a few things ive done. if my kids want something I have always encouraged them to negotiate about it. say what they want, why they want it etc. Also when I want them to do something I usually make it about participation in cooperative family dynamics, not a "rule". so, if I want them to unload dishwasher its so that I can load the dishwasher and then run it before its too late to use the dishes for dinner
@artemis
@lizzard
I take them to help do shopping and things, and teach them about how to shop for cost effective things, budgeting, and making tradeoffs between different options. They are almost 15 and 16 now. they have access to a bank account and a debit card, they sometimes use it to do stuff for the family and get paid back. They have never had strict bedtimes or things but they learn to make conscious decisions about what's wisein terms of staying up and being tired later etc.
@artemis
@lizzard
When I encourage them to consider the way social things affect them I make it explicit where I dont agree with systems but still think those systems could harm them... grades, rules about behavior at school, laws to control children, etc... i tell them that even if I dont agree with those things sometimes they may be better off being aware of them and choosing to go along with them, and other times they may choose to break those rules.
@artemis

@dlakelan @artemis

The difference is that you're raising a dog, not training them. Same with kids. You have to raise them as independent creatures capable of making positive choices on their own.

I like the idea, but I think "Raising Dogs" is a better phrase than dog training.

@CorvidCrone
You gotta meet people where they are though. when they BUY the book they'll be looking for dog training, after they read the book, they'll think of it differently.
@artemis

@dlakelan
Yes! When I got my dog, I started looking up how to train her, & I was pretty sickened by the Cesar Milan style stuff. I was thinking "I'm getting this dog for companionship, not to have something I can control!"

Fortunately, yeah, there are alternative approaches.

@artemis

I honestly think that going through all that dog training literature paved the way to me identifying as Anarchist. along with some very useful posts by @HeavenlyPossum

@artemis For years I told them if they didn't shape up I'd send them to military school. Then later suggested if they didn't get their act together with college that they might make good marines.

's working so far.
@artemis Fortunately, I didn't grow up with parents like that. My parents never tried to force me to obey them (and I'm very stubborn; if I absolutely don't want to do something, nobody is going to make me do it). I was born in 1975 in West Germany, and my parents believed in anti-authoritarian education.

@artemis I got this too. I had in recent years assumed it was because of the autism - all my differences assumed to be malevolence - but maybe it’s most kids now.

A conversation I've broached a couple times with parents is when they get a bit snippy about their kids’ attitude. Like kids these days should be more grateful and hard-working or whatever. Look at the fucking world! How do you expect kids to be 1950s teenagers in this!

@artemis I've spent a lot of time being emotional support for kids who didn't have a "safe adult" in real life. Usually they met my kid first and my kid brought them to me, like, here, my mom is your mom now. And that connection was important to a lot of those young people, even if it was only for a short time. Teachers are no longer able to provide that like they used to be, nor are neighbors. The whole "parents' rights" bs has seen to that. Young people now have so few options.
@artemis making that pool even smaller does not help them. I am really worried for them. Not all parents are good parents, not all parents are stable, and even then, not all kids are able to trust their parents with certain things, or want to worry their parents, for a number of reasons. It's not right for young people to be so unsupported. 😔 the majority of adults are not creeps. Kids need role models and people they can trust if something goes wrong. I just. Am so sorry.
@secretsloth @artemis yes on all of this. Up to 2 adults that a kid can kinda sorta trust are not enough, even if those 2 adults trustworthy--for example, I've seen external child abusers use scripts to avoid parental intervention, and I imagine it's easier to convince a kid not to tell the one or two people in charge of disciplining the kid than to convince them not to talk to anyone about it
@raphaelmorgan @artemis yep. Exactly. And sometimes kids need to bounce ideas off of someone who is just *not a parent,* for whatever reason, not for dodgy reasons, sometimes it's just embarrassing or they have a problem with a friend whose parents are best friends with their parents or they aren't sure how to approach their parents about something and they need help with adult to adult language. Or, as you say, an adult can help them recognize abuse or unhealthy relationships.

@secretsloth
💜

It's so beautiful when you can give someone the kindness & support that is lacking in their lives. And being an adult that kids *genuinely* see as safe is no small feat when they aren't accustomed to feeling safe.

@artemis it's something I didn't have, so I know the value of it. But with the age verification and all, I'm seriously worried that it will be harder for them to reach me at all. Now that my kid is grown, I usually meet them by chance, and that'd be much less likely because many would be gated off, but also, as you say, surveillance. 😒 folks nowadays assume bad things if an adult is spending time with young people, especially queer young folks. I feel like that's part of the point.
@secretsloth @artemis
It’s heartwarming when a child _chooses_ to trust you.
Even if that’s your own child.
Most parents would take it for granted.
Well, it isn’t. Nobody is owed their own child’s trust. It must be earned
@artemis
The attitudes of conservatives show that they only care about their OWN children, and not the well-being of society in general, which in turn shows that they are not fit to participate in society.

@artemis you know, what really gets to me is that all these adults who are demanding age verification for the Internet are the ones who grew up without it and think they turned out normal.

You know, the kids who knew where the forbidden porn mags were hidden in the woods.

@artemis I keep saying, if they want to stop kids from getting groomed online, they could start with implementing any sort of repercussions for the people who have been openly grooming kids online while knowing full well that the child was a child and not covering their tracks whatsoever. They could even give kids education on what to do when encountering an adult online who wants a sexual relationship. Either could've helped me, and could actually help kids now. Restricting their autonomy won't
@artemis
Totally agree. Bans do not equip kids with any useful tool.
Empowerment comes from being trusted to develop, with guidance, the skills needed to navigate life and its dangers.