๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)

I don't know who needs to hear this, but if you're yelling at a person on Fedi for not using #AltText, stop. Please.

Should you use alt-text? Yes!

Should you boost posts without alt-text? No!

Should you yell at companies and bots who don't use alt-text? Fuck yeah!

Should you try your best to make Fedi a more accessible, and safe place for everyoneโ€”including those who have trouble writing alt-text? Of course.

Should you mention @altbot or #Alt4Me *occasionally* so folx know they're both wonderful tools that can help make Fedi a more inclusive place? It would be impolite not to.

Butโ€”and let me make this clearโ€”don't be a dick to folx who forget alt-text, or who have trouble writing it for whatever reason; it's not very punk of you.

4:18amWeb
Show threadJoscelyn Transpiring4h ago
@alice @altbot given that the majority of people are on the feddy because they have a problem with authority or people trying to control how they use things, it is literally the exactly wrong demographic to try to yell at people to change their behavior. Instead, appeal to their anti-authoritarian tendencies by pointing out how shitty mainstream social media spaces are to disabled people and you know this cool way people can stick it to Zuckerberg and Elon, and it just takes 10 seconds to do.
Show threadRandom Walsh2h ago
@JoscelynTransient @alice @altbot *given that the majority of people on feddy are people, that is human beings with soul and brains and stuff.
Show threadD. G. Marshall2h ago

@JoscelynTransient @alice @altbot

I have written alt text as my reply to posts lacking alt text.

So far, no negative responses from the original poster, and several positive responses.

Show threadMungen Cakes โœ…4h ago
@alice @altbot
Want to increase accessibility? Reply to the toot with the text-less image with alt text for that image. There. You made that image accessible without being a dick. You did it. You made an example of yourself. You made things better. Yourself.
Show threadMastodon Migration4h ago

@alice @altbot

Basically telling other people how they should be using Mastodon is not cool unless they are violating some instance rule.

You always have the option of muting them or blocking them so you don't have to endure whatever offense you perceive they are perpetrating.

Now, fully realize telling people not to tell people how to use Mastodon is kind of telling people how to use Mastodon. So it's a conundrum, but generally agree with Alice. Please don't be a Mastodon HOA enforcer.

Show threadRandom Walsh3h ago
@mastodonmigration @alice @altbot "fully realize telling people not to tell people how to use Mastodon is kind of telling people how to use Mastodon". No, it's common sense. No more paradox here than in saying everyone should be free to do as they please. Of course there's more to social life than such minimalistic wisdom but telling people what they should say and how they should say it is clearly no the best way to start a conversation between equals.
Show threadJupiter Rowland3h ago
@Mastodon Migration Basically telling other people how they should be using Mastodon is not cool unless they are violating some instance rule.
As, by the way, is telling Fediverse users who are not on Mastodon to use whatever they use instead like Mastodon users are expected to use Mastodon.

Please don't be a Mastodon HOA enforcer.
Especially since the alt-text police of the Mastodon HOA have much higher alt-text and image description minimum standards than blind or visually-impaired people. And they seem to be raising their standards further and further.

I always try my best to be way ahead of anyone's image description minimum standards, also in order to demonstrate to the Mastodon HOA that I'm not a lazy bum, and that I do try hard to describe my images properly. For my own original images, this means that I have to describe each one of them twice, with a fairly short description in the alt-text and a much longer one in the post itself.

This, however, clashes with the Mastodon HOA, too, because they also enforce Mastodon's default 500-character limit Fediverse-wide by generously blocking everyone whom they catch exceeding it at first strike.

CC: @๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด  (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AltTextPolice #MastodonHOA
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

Show threadPino Carafa1h ago

@mastodonmigration @alice @altbot There's a difference between posting a Toot asking people to do something, and a direct reply to someone to tell them.

What I particularly detest is:
* A posts a Toot
* B replies
* A valiant Shite in Whining Armour, C, comes galloping in on their Mighty Steed and starts defending A against the Horrible Thing B must have had the Unmitigated Audacity to say as A, a Frail little Blossom, will surely take Offence and surely won't be able to defend themselves.

Show threadใ‚ฑใƒฌใƒ ใ•ใ‚“ ๐Ÿดโ€โ˜ ๏ธ ใ‚คใƒฉใ‚นใƒˆ 4h ago
@alice @altbot THANK YOU VERY MUCH ๐Ÿ™Œ
Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES4h ago

@alice @altbot

thank you

there are voices on the fediverse that speak with rank entitlement

they believe they can approach someone, treat them poorly, and get something out of them

no

you act nicely, you act kind, you say thank you

and you may change their behavior

you also may not

but if you treat someone poorly, you definitely won't change their behavior

some of you out there:

think about where this massive sense of entitlement you have comes from

and fix it

please and thank you

Show threadAlexa Devreux-Swift4h ago

@benroyce

I have only ever done this once, and even then I didn't yell. A Tooter asked for their toot to be boosted, however the image didn't have alt text and my reply was that I would love to boost the toot, however, without alt text I couldn't and then explained about screen readers etc.

The Tooter put alt text on and I boosted!

All the others who just post without alt text? Likes and replies only.

@alice @altbot

Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES4h ago

@alexadeswift @alice @altbot

that's the way to do it! ๐Ÿ’ช ๐Ÿ˜ค

Show threadAlexa Devreux-Swift4h ago

@benroyce

I try my best, unfortunately autism sometimes can get in the way and make me act like an arsehole though! ๐Ÿ˜ฌ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

@alice @altbot

Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES4h ago

@alexadeswift @alice @altbot

you have nothing to explain to me. i can be a major asshole ๐Ÿ˜‚

Show threadAlexa Devreux-Swift4h ago

@benroyce

Major Arsehole and Big Shit goes together like Peaches & Cream, and can be very cathartic when targeted with surgical precision!

@alice @altbot

Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES4h ago

@alexadeswift @alice @altbot

the trick is knowing when to apply which

i've been guilty of delivering the vinegar when a little honey would be more effective, and vice versa

we learn to know which is better, but it's an art not a science

Show thread๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)4h ago
@benroyce @alexadeswift ah Fedi, bringing unintentional assholes together since 2016 ๐Ÿฅฐ
Show threadAlexa Devreux-Swift4h ago

@alice

So so true ๐Ÿคฉ

@benroyce

Show threadPino Carafa1h ago

@alexadeswift @alice @benroyce Arseholes of the world, unite!

Maybe I shouldn't have said that, it conjured up some *cough* "interesting" mental images.

Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES1h ago

@rozeboosje @alexadeswift @alice

you can be kind, but not nice. you sort of have to be in this world

while being nice, but not kind, is just fakery

and someone who is both kind and nice: i fear for them in this world as it is

Show threadAlexa Devreux-Swift49m ago

@benroyce

I am all in for Arseholes Of The World Unite โœŠ๐Ÿป and shitting all over the racist fascist queerphobic bigots ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

Sounds like an excellent way to make high quality manure and compost!

@rozeboosje @alice

Show threadMichael Gale4h ago
@alice @benroyce @alexadeswift hm? I heard my name?
Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES3h ago

@miclgael @alice @alexadeswift

FUCK YOU!

oh wait sorry

hi michael

(/s)

Show threadMichael Gale3h ago

@benroyce @alice @alexadeswift

Did we just become best friends.mp4

Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES3h ago

@miclgael @alice @alexadeswift

no best friends happens after we trade 4 barbed withering insults then smile in appreciation and pat each other on the back ๐Ÿ˜‚

Show threadMichael Gale3h ago

@benroyce @alice @alexadeswift

Yeah? Well - nice avatar and I love seeing your toots come up on my timeline ๐Ÿ‘‹ ๐Ÿ™Š

Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES3h ago

@miclgael @alice @alexadeswift

oh yeah well may your every meet with Malenia, Blade Of Miquella result in an easy win

Show threadMichael Gale2h ago

@benroyce @alice @alexadeswift

They always do!

((as long as multiple high level players join in and do the bulk of the work))

Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES2h ago

@miclgael @alice @alexadeswift

๐Ÿ˜‚

or just one, Let Me Solo Her

Show thread๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)2h ago

@benroyce I really want to slip in a "that's what she said" joke, but it hardly seems on point.

@miclgael @alexadeswift

Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES2h ago

@alice @miclgael @alexadeswift

๐Ÿคญ

Show thread๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)2h ago

@benroyce deep cut.

@miclgael @alexadeswift

Show threadBewilderedKat 4h ago

@alexadeswift
I occasionally come across posts without any text that I would love to boost, and so I take this approach. Because it's true that I would love to boost it but I won't if there's no alt text.

I'm often not the only one. And sometimes there will be a commenter that maybe even made an attempt to supply the original poster with alt text. It's generally been quite effective (except in maybe two cases I'm aware of)

I'm only mean or degrading to people when they've explicitly asked for it (usually in a kink context).
@benroyce @alice @altbot

Show threadแดฎแต‰โฟ แดฟแต’สธแถœแต‰VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES3h ago

@h3mmy @alexadeswift @alice @altbot

i did not see the alt text scenario derived consensual roleplay coming, but i'm howling that it did

"and what is that? a picture of a snail? you know what the snail is doing, the dirty thing, dirty like you. beg to write it out. be specific! do you want to please me? show me your submission... no not like that i mean hit submit on the comment with the alt text"

Show thread๐Ÿด๐Ÿณโ€โšง๐Ÿดโ€โ˜ 38m ago

@alexadeswift @benroyce @alice @altbot

I got tired of bitching about this and copy/paste the image in a repost with alt text. images of just text without alt text still grind my gears though

Show threadMy camera shoots fascists4h ago

@alice @altbot

Even if you're not the target of a scold, seeing someone scolding others is an icky vibe.

I think we've all seen someone adding alt text as a comment in a way that instead of feeling friendly and helpful, feels passive-aggressive. At the same time, some people might take offense unnecessarily, even when none is intended. I think in general adding alt text to someone else's image without being asked it's an okay practice, but has to be done very carefully.

Show thread๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)4h ago
@Mikal yeah, good rule of thumb is to try to be helpful, not haughty.
Show threadPino Carafa1h ago

@alice @Mikal "I think the image of X dressed as Y doing Z you just posted there is a nice illustration of Topic A. My own comment on the matter: ...."

Ninja Alt Text

Show threadโœถRayotronโœถ4h ago

@alice @altbot

It's been pointed out a couple of times that I'd forgotten to add alt-text. I fixed it and appreciated that it had been brought to my attention. One person who corrected me was visually impaired and had every right to.

Those people were polite and I feel they were right for letting me know. That being said, I have seen snarky alt-text nazis and they really do suck.

Show threadKai Klostermann4h ago
@alice @altbot May I offer you a feature request in these trying times?
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/26464
Show thread๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)3h ago

@OddDev I like the feature suggestion, but I'd suggest a few restrictions on alt-text submissions so trolls don't use it as an invisible way to spam users with horrible messages.

1. Image must be missing alt-text to get proposal
2. Only one proposal per account
3. No proposals from accounts/servers you have blocked or limited.

@altbot

Show threadnormy foxyoreos1h ago

@alice @OddDev @altbot I've wanted this for a while, and I think it would be a big help on the Fediverse.<3

I compare this to tag suggestions on the NSFW galleries I post to. Good galleries allow users to suggest tags without commenting, that increases the number of suggestions and leads to better tagging and filtering.

Some implementations I've seen:

Show threadnormy foxyoreos1h ago

@alice @OddDev @altbot - users can disable tag suggestions (I'd like this for alt text suggestions, it's a really effective safety valve against harassment)

- mods can also accept tags, which greatly increases the speed without opening up to much abuse. The fediverse equivalent would be something like "your own instance operator can accept alt text for you." I am neutral on this, there are some instances I think it would be great, others where maybe they're too large and it becomes dangerous.

Show threadnormy foxyoreos1h ago

@alice @OddDev @altbot
- blocks apply to suggestions (you already mentioned that, but yeah)

- the only thing I'd question is, the one per account? I'm not saying it's wrong, I see the benefit, but with tagging, very often I'd find community members who would literally sit down and go through an artists gallery and meticulously tag in one sitting and you ended up with like.. expert taggers in the community that just did this. And it's really really good with that happens.

Show threadnormy foxyoreos1h ago

@alice @OddDev @altbot BUT.. I also see the potential for abuse, yeah. It would need to be paired with like.. the ability to mass reject all proposals from a user, maybe limitations between instances or a user setting to force it to be one per account? idk.

I'd absolutely love to see something like this come to Mastodon though. It makes alt text more of a community thing <3

Show threadjan Ki | ๅฅ‡  3h ago
@OddDev @alice
please don't auto-generate alt-text, just write it by hand. auto-generation is flawed and misses context. oftentimes having a sloppy auto-generated alt-text is worse than having none at all
Show threadKai Klostermann3h ago

@ki @alice

I suggest to click the link first. ๐Ÿ˜…๐Ÿ™ƒ

Show threadjan Ki | ๅฅ‡  3h ago
@OddDev @alice
I did, but judging by your reply, I've probably misunderstood it? I was thinking about the composition UI and an LLM anti-feature in the context of altbot
Show threadKai Klostermann3h ago

@ki @alice It is for other humans to provide alt text.

> People choose to either scold the author in the replies or add a image descriptions as an answer.
It would make this process much easier to have a dedicated feature for that.

Show thread๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)3h ago

@ki also, that's what proofreading is for.

@OddDev

Show threadjan Ki | ๅฅ‡  3h ago
@alice @OddDev
I don't trust people who don't write their own alt-text to proofread it :/
Show thread๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)3h ago

@ki I've never seen altbot get something so wrong that it would be worse than not having alt-text. In fact, altbot consistently writes better alt-text than like 90% of folx on Fedi.

I hate corporate AI bullshit, but altbot isn't that.

@OddDev

Show threadแดบโฑหกแถป ๐Ÿธ4h ago
@alice @[email protected]
Show thread๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)3h ago

@nilz

Hey @altbot can you describe this image for me? ๐Ÿฉท

Show threadPino Carafa1h ago

@alice @nilz @altbot I think Nilz makes a good point. I bet a lot of people are like that guy in the green shirt in that clip, sleeping through a conversation without paying attention and then clapping along enthusiastically when the applause starts. But that's okay, better than completely ignoring it, I guess.

*which is, of course, an example of what I was hinting at in another reply ๐Ÿคช

Show threadmirabilos4h ago

@altbot @alice altbot is AI slop and makes things worse for everyone.

Aye to the rest. alt4me is great.

Show thread๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)3h ago

@mirabilos have you seen AltBot? Its alt-text is better than most folx', it's a tiny (7mb), free, open-source model, paid for by the person hosting it, and it takes less energy than opening your fridge for a few seconds.

I'm all for bashing corporate AI bullshit, but this ain't it.

Show threadJourei3h ago

@alice At least once have I just not posted something because describing the image in any meaningful way would've been quite a task.
Though nowadays I'll post it anyway, perhaps I should call in helpers in those cases in the future.

Getting yelled at for not being able to do something definitely pushes people away.

Show threadJupiter Rowland3h ago
@Jourei At least once have I just not posted something because describing the image in any meaningful way would've been quite a task.
Though nowadays I'll post it anyway, perhaps I should call in helpers in those cases in the future.
I could post lots of pictures that I've made myself, maybe several a week. Instead, I haven't posted any since mid-2024.

I, too, refuse to post any image that doesn't have descriptions (two of them for each one of my original images) which are up to my own constantly rising standards. But these standards mean that even a fairly simple image may require several hours to one or two days to describe and explain.

In fact, I have been working on the descriptions of a series of avatar portraits for about a year and a half. So far, only the common preamble for four images and the individual long description for one of them are written. Distilling an optimal alt-text from them will be difficult because recent discoveries had me lower my personal alt-text character limit from 1,500 to 512, and I haven't even managed to put one together that doesn't exceed 1,500 characters.

And that's for avatar portraits with a neutral white background. Imagine the effort necessary for a landscape or a cityscape or something like that. So much about it being done in 10 seconds.

I recall finding a beautifully built, highly detailed harbour scene. It didn't even have anything in it that'd trigger anyone, I guess, so I deemed it safe enough to post. But I found it outright impossible to properly describe within a reasonable amount of time and with a reasonable effort. I ended up choosing a much different scene that still ended up taking me two full days to describe in the long description plus the morning of the third day to write an alt-text.

To be honest, I avoid having certain elements in my pictures now, such as vehicles and buildings unless they're very simple.

CC: @๐Ÿ…ฐ๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ด  (๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿฆ„)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla